A simple Google search will show you there have been over 60 fatalities in eventing since 1993, and the count is not up to date. There is also a list of those having major injuries. Pretty sure that show jumping has numbers not even close to that. Somebody needs to be the grown up here and take charge of the current gladiator status of the sport if it is not to be shut down altogether.
These hearts were woven of human joys and cares,
Washed marvellously with sorrow, swift to mirth.
The years had given them kindness. Dawn was theirs,
And sunset, and the colours of the earth.
These had seen movement, and heard music; known
Slumber and waking; loved; gone proudly friended;
Felt the quick stir of wonder; sat alone;
Touched flowers and furs and cheeks. All this is ended.
There are waters blown by changing winds to laughter
And lit by the rich skies, all day. And after,
Frost, with a gesture, stays the waves that dance
And wandering loveliness. He leaves a white
Unbroken glory, a gathered radiance,
A width, a shining peace, under the night.
by Rupert Brooke
This poem came to mind. It is pretty widely thought RB didnât have a clue what he was talking about since he shortly went on to die in WWI. It reminds me of this discussion. But we donât really know, I suppose. It will always remain a pretty verse.
I urge everyone that is concerned and is willing to be part of the solution to contribute to the USEA Collapsible Fence Study.
We we all need to get behind finding a solution, we all need to forward to helping prevent tragedies.
Iâve made a commitment to some fund raising for this study, I hope some of you will, too.
If you would like to donate online, you can go to the website and click on the donate button. There is a check box on that page for the Collapsible Fence Study and you can be certain your dollars are going to that specific fund. Alternatively, if you would like to donate by check simply make your check payable to the USEA, and in the memo section write Collapsible Fence Study.
When I got back into horses, eventing was the first discipline I was drawn to. Then I got a look at the fatalities, and decided I just couldnât do that to my horses, nor could I ask my kids to send me out on cross country wondering if Iâd come back alive. I still held a soft spot for it for a bit, but that has really eroded into dreading the headline every time I see a cross country picture pop up in my timeline. A huge chunk of my timeline today was discussing the two deaths today, and itâs a complete tragedy to me. The fact that this just seems to be an accepted fact of life to several people on these FB post appalls me. How many deaths is it going to take? Weâre not just losing adults, weâre losing children too. And horses. Thereâs no such thing as being around horses with zero risk, but really⌠We can and SHOULD actively work to reduce that risk. When death is just a normal thing, it really scares me. I wonât let my kids event, nor would I sell a horse to an eventer.
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8663413]
What is the solution? Simpler courses? More events at a lower level before the horse can move up? Is there a solution or is it just part of the sport?[/QUOTE]
I do a fair bit of engineering type modeling and I think the issue boils down to solid fences at the right height and shape to flip horses over very fast and straight AND the horse and rider tending to act as one unit throughout the fall.
Most Xcountry fences are at or around chest height on a horse s the potential for flipping is obviously much greater than a larger or smaller fence. If the fence was 7â tall and the horse chested it he would fall back to the landing side. If they catch a lower leg they tend to rotate around that leg in a sideways fall, which looks bad but is usually harmless. If they were jumping open fences such that the horses went swimming through them you would see a different kind of fall because, in short, the fence would create drag on the horse and it would slow down but the rider would not and therefore they would travel on different trajectories and separate before they hit the ground. The âstickinessâ of the rider in the tack is a huge variable in this scenario: how much force does it take to seperate the rider from the tack, after all tack is mostly designed to not have you go flying off (possibly a mistake). I think Boydâs all at the Vicarage Vee falls into this category. Horse takes out fence, momentum is reduced, meanwhile rider continues closer to the original speed and lands past the horseâs landing zone mostly. BUT those open fences were trappy and dangerous for the horses so they were largely replaced with fences that the horses wonât get hung up on and therefore the horse and rider tend to remain on the same trajectory and land together. Which is bad if youâre the smaller mammal and the whole unit lands upsidedown.
In a jump racing saddle the rider tends to be dislodged early on at higher speed and does not typically land under the horse. Also the fences tend to not be chest height. They are hurdles or big fences.
Iâd really love to see if anyone has modeled this stuff. I think you could do some fairly basic work and get some insight. Not perfect answer because modeling doesnât work like that, but a reasonably good idea of the forces that create a situation where a) the horse rotates very fast and straight and b) the critical parts of the rider land under the heavy parts of the horse. Unfortunately I think the answer would be something like âdonât jump over chest high obstacles at moderate speeds in a saddleâ
The problem with any collapsible fence is that there will a significant number of horses that will bank it and thus trigger a unwanted deformation with its own subsequent risks.
We should make any possible improvements to obstacle & course design but keep in mind that the total world Eventing deaths is probably less than those for pedestrians in any medium sized town over the same period.
I guess it was because it was my profession for so many years I canât help but draw comparisons to horse racing in my mind. Horse racing is far from perfect and it draws a lot of criticism when a horse breaks down. Some of that is legitimate like when a known âbutcherâ keeps sending lame horses out there week after week when you wonder how it ever got past the vet when the leg finally snaps; some of it is just really bad luck. The perfect example of bad luck is Barbaro. That horse never took a bad step in itâs life and was perfectly prepared to do his job when the unthinkable happened.
If horse racing had a thousandth that percentage of horse deaths, or 100,000th the number of human fatalities, the industry would cease to exist. I admit that I too donât know what the answer is, but something has to change. The only reason eventing at the top level has been allowed to continue the way it is now is the general public doesnât know it exists, unlike horse racing. It shouldnât take the pressure of Nancy housewife to do something to save our own however.
This tragic loss of life⌠so very sad⌠heartbreakingâŚ
We keep talking about how âthisâ has to stop.
Tables have been a staple of the event course since the beginning of time. They are always out on the big galloping parts of any course. They are on beginner novice courses and they are at 4*s.
I do not see what we can change without getting rid of the most basic of jumps on every xc course.
We have frangible pins. But they are not feasible on tables.
If we get rid of the max tables, we get rid of cross country as we know it. And that is the only way that I can think of to prevent a similar tragedy in the future.
Unless I am missing something.
My understanding is that the horse was not tired or jumping poorly. They were going great. He had a perfect take off. He dropped a leg. Why we will never know. But it happened. It is tragic. It is sadder beyond sad. There are no words.
I think this carnage became so prevalent when Eventing went to the short format. Before that, x/c was only the last of 4 phases and was meant to show that horses were fit enough to still jump a cross country course after R&T, steeplechase, and R&T. Back then, x/c was stiff but not terrifying. Now, with nothing else to do, x/c has taken on gigantic (literally and figuratively) proportions.
Bring back the long format! (Yeah, like that will ever happenâŚ)
[QUOTE=mademoiselle;8156181]
I was an eventer for years, but quit showing after a bad tumble at an event (concussion and transverse process fracture of C7). I have switched to dressage and coach eventing students.
I still love the sport, I still jump and even school horses over XC jumps, but I have lost the drive and I guess the guts to actually event at upper levels.
It is also a choice based on the fact that I do not like the direction the sport has taken in the past 10 years. I have some issues dealing with the idea that some of my friends, students and beloved equines could potentially get hurt or killed for the sake of a sport.
My daughters were 3YO and 3 months old when I got hurt. And while I was recovering at the hospital, I had plenty of time to reflect on life. And while nothing compares to the high you get on XC, it is not worth it. Not when the stakes are so high.
I have some issues to believe that in 2015 there isnât any solutions out there to make this sport safer. I refuse to accept that we can not come up with engineering models to improve the jump construction and make them safer. Come onâŚ
My daughter (just turned 10) has started eventing on her pony, and Iâm thrilled to watch her go at the lower levels. But as she grows up, she will have to pick a different discipline, I refuse to take a chance and watch her ride at Prelimâ and up, not unless something drastic happens. I donât want my kid to become a post on EN and the COTH and just turn into an other fatality. No thank you.[/QUOTE]
Yes. This is exactly how it has played out for me too.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;8663480]
A simple Google search will show you there have been over 60 fatalities in eventing since 1993, and the count is not up to date. There is also a list of those having major injuries. Pretty sure that show jumping has numbers not even close to that. Somebody needs to be the grown up here and take charge of the current gladiator status of the sport if it is not to be shut down altogether.[/QUOTE]
Does anyone know the death rate prior to removing the long format from eventing?
I read a post on FB where an UL laments the changes of her sport, yet the fact is, this sport has already changed dramatically from what it used to be.
Do we need to go back to long format? If we canât bring back the roads and tracks and steeplechase, can we at least bring back the old galloping xc days and stop making it so damn technical? That to me is probably one of the biggest changes that need to occur.
What about course designers? Maybe data needs to be kept on the death/accident rate of each designer. I know that this yearâs Red Hills had no accidents or deaths, which was a first for several years. They brought in a different course designer, so was that the reason?
I think we need to identify problem jumps and remove them. I hated when my daughter jumped corners and tables. They are one reason I have no desire to go past novice level. Those may or may not be major issues and it may just be my own personal problem with those jumps, but I would like to see an analysis of each type of jump.
There have been too many deaths again and my fear is that nothing will be done, there will just be lots of forum discussions, lots of ideas, but nothing will happen to make the sport safer and then in another month or 2, when the next accident happens, we will find ourselves back on this forum, discussing to the wind, how to make our sport that we love safer.
I donât see why getting rid of max tables would ruin XC. I just walked the Plantation Training course (we were on our way to a wedding and took a wee detour). It was a thoughtfully designed course that used the terrain to ask all kinds of questions. There was one max table on course out of 22 efforts.
As I recall the FEI study did show a distinct clumping of injury-causing falls at specific fence types. Why canât we work to reduce that problem through both technology and choice of fence without ruining the sport?
Many years ago (1990âs) there was a death at a training level table in Pa. It could have even been at an unrecognized event, I donât remember? Afterwards tables were not level, they were ascending - for a few years. That style went by the wayside at some point. It seemed that back then, (before corners and skinnies and vests), a study had shown that flat tables caused the most serious accidents. Does anyone else remember that and know why they went back to flat tables?
Hereâs my confusion: why do the courses have to keep getting tougher? It seems like there are a lot of course designers who have to make the questions harder and harder for horse and rider to figure out safely, and where the consequences of getting it wrong means maiming horse and rider, in the best case scenario. But why? Why is this a thing? In dressage, the movements of the levels have been the same for a long time, and somehow the sport survives. No one has proposed making horses canter backwards or do airs above the ground in dressage competition, but it feels like the equivalent is being asked of event horses on x-c.
Why does it have to be so hard? There are so many things that will make it not a dressage competition, so why make x-c a live version of the Saw movies? I just donât understand it.
[QUOTE=kcrubin;8663686]
Many years ago (1990âs) there was a death at a training level table in Pa. It could have even been at an unrecognized event, I donât remember? Afterwards tables were not level, they were ascending - for a few years. That style went by the wayside at some point. It seemed that back then, (before corners and skinnies and vests), a study had shown that flat tables caused the most serious accidents. Does anyone else remember that and know why they went back to flat tables?[/QUOTE]
That rings a bell. I had in my head that there was a prelim amateur death at a table (not sure if I am actually thinking of the accident you mention, or if there were several) and that they got rid of vertical faced tables along with making them ascending after establishing that square tables had the highest rate of rotational falls.
A lot of the time it does feel ârandomâ in the sense that accidents donât always happen at the same types of fences, or those believed to be particularly challenging, but I do remember the square table study.
[QUOTE=snowrider;8663545]
I do a fair bit of engineering type modeling and I think the issue boils down to solid fences at the right height and shape to flip horses over very fast and straight AND the horse and rider tending to act as one unit throughout the fall.
Most Xcountry fences are at or around chest height on a horse s the potential for flipping is obviously much greater than a larger or smaller fence. If the fence was 7â tall and the horse chested it he would fall back to the landing side. If they catch a lower leg they tend to rotate around that leg in a sideways fall, which looks bad but is usually harmless. If they were jumping open fences such that the horses went swimming through them you would see a different kind of fall because, in short, the fence would create drag on the horse and it would slow down but the rider would not and therefore they would travel on different trajectories and separate before they hit the ground. The âstickinessâ of the rider in the tack is a huge variable in this scenario: how much force does it take to seperate the rider from the tack, after all tack is mostly designed to not have you go flying off (possibly a mistake). I think Boydâs all at the Vicarage Vee falls into this category. Horse takes out fence, momentum is reduced, meanwhile rider continues closer to the original speed and lands past the horseâs landing zone mostly. BUT those open fences were trappy and dangerous for the horses so they were largely replaced with fences that the horses wonât get hung up on and therefore the horse and rider tend to remain on the same trajectory and land together. Which is bad if youâre the smaller mammal and the whole unit lands upsidedown.
In a jump racing saddle the rider tends to be dislodged early on at higher speed and does not typically land under the horse. Also the fences tend to not be chest height. They are hurdles or big fences.
"[/QUOTE]
I cannot find the article now (I may have seen it in pre-internet days) but there was an interesting one by a stunt-motorcycle rider explaining how he had to take a âdifferentâ fall from his machine in order to stay safe/clear. The concern at the time was as now with a spate of rotational xc falls & the fact that the riders were still in the tack rather than being launched as the horse fell.
Iâm not sure riders are taught to bail out safely if they feel a horse going down (may not have time to do so either) âthe mindset of stick on at all costs to avoid elimination needs to go if your mount is on his/her way down as well.
Tragic weekend.
[QUOTE=asterix;8663650]
I donât see why getting rid of max tables would ruin XC. I just walked the Plantation Training course (we were on our way to a wedding and took a wee detour). It was a thoughtfully designed course that used the terrain to ask all kinds of questions. There was one max table on course out of 22 efforts.
As I recall the FEI study did show a distinct clumping of injury-causing falls at specific fence types. Why canât we work to reduce that problem through both technology and choice of fence without ruining the sport?[/QUOTE]
Course and fence design are critical. If big tables are a problem they need to go. WFPâs defense of the Vicarage Vee rang hollow in the face if the carnage there. Change it! Della Cheesy does not impress me.
[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8663697]
That rings a bell. I had in my head that there was a prelim amateur death at a table (not sure if I am actually thinking of the accident you mention, or if there were several) and that they got rid of vertical faced tables along with making them ascending after establishing that square tables had the highest rate of rotational falls.
A lot of the time it does feel ârandomâ in the sense that accidents donât always happen at the same types of fences, or those believed to be particularly challenging, but I do remember the square table study.[/QUOTE]
Here are the current FEI rules for tables :
http://fei.org/system/files/2014-02-11%20FEI%20Cross%20Country%20Course%20Design%20Guidelines%20-%20version%201%207.pdf
Table Fences
⢠At all levels up to and including 3-star, tables should be built with a sloping front face, sloping
upwards away from the Horse on the take-off side of the fence.
⢠In the case of picnic tables with a bench in front, the top line of the table can have a vertical
face of at least 25 cm and the bench in front should also have a vertical face of at least 25 cm.
⢠At all levels, the possibility of a false ground line must be avoided. Thus for instance in the case
of a picnic table be careful when having a bench on the landing side of the obstacle.
⢠It is vital that the Horse is able to judge the spread of an obstacle â this may mean it is necessary
to make the top of a table slightly ascending or to colour the landing edge if it might blend into
the background.
⢠The back part of the table should be about 3 - 5 cm higher than the front part.
[QUOTE=ksbadger;8663549]
The problem with any collapsible fence is that there will a significant number of horses that will bank it and thus trigger a unwanted deformation with its own subsequent risks.
We should make any possible improvements to obstacle & course design but keep in mind that the total world Eventing deaths is probably less than those for pedestrians in any medium sized town over the same period.[/QUOTE]
This is what a Frangible study is for, tofind the best way to support safe deployment in need.
We really need to get behind the research, both what works and what doesnât. If a Frangible device deploying saves a catastrophic result itâs worth 1000 people donating $5 to a study. There are people that can afford more, but $5 is one breakfast from McDonalds, one coffee from Starbucks, half of one movie ticket. Surely those that are concerned can do that?
There was a large square table early on the intermediate course at Morven a few weeks ago that had some kind of collapsing hardware on it. Why canât they all have that? Tables at all levels scare me the most, because they are so unforgiving if you get there wrong.
