WTF Are We Doing?

[Mozart]

I just sold a young horse to lovely young woman as an eventing prospect. I had marketed him a jumper/equitation prospect but he is also a lovely mover, brave jumper and has a huge gallop stride. Pretty handy to boot.

Honestly, if I had a couple of buyers to choose from I would have chosen a different career for him. As it is, he will have a great life with a knowledgeable care taker and lots of turnout and hacking out. I know life as a jumper/equitation horse would likely be less interesting so I am telling myself his day to day life will be better.

Eventing was my first equestrian love and I evented myself in the nineties but my feelings about the sport are so conflicted. When you find yourself relieved that a major competition concludes with no loss of horses…not sport I can get behind anymore.

I would be lying if I said I am not worried. She also shows in the jumpers, I am really hoping she leaves eventing and focusses full time on the jumper ring.

[Manahmanah]

2015 FEI statistics.

http://www.fei.org/system/files/FEI_StatisticsReport_2005-2015_26.02.2016.pdf

Some excerpts:

The percentage of rotational horse falls (higher risk of injuries for horse and rider) has decreased from 0.45 horse fall every 100 starters
(1 rotational horse fall every 224 starters) in 2005 to 0.19 rotational horse fall every 100 starters (1 rotational horse fall every 536 starters) in 2015

Later down it says the rate of fatality per starts is .0058, or 1 fatal fall every 17,317 starts.

For comparison, your chances of dying while attempting to climb Mt. Everest is 2.5 ish percent.

Both are high risk activities where the participant understands a high level of danger is inherent to the thing they are about to attempt. There is a good deal of personal responsibility in ensuring you are physically and mentally prepared for the task.

From page 21 - Serious injury and death has decreased from +/- .3 in 2005, dropping significantly in 2009 when there was a huge safety push. It has remained under .2 since then

[snowrider]

That is quite an impressive reduction.

I will say though that the rider does not have as much room to exercise choice and judgment in eventing as in other high risk activities since you are jumping around a course. The comparison to mountaineering is not valid. In eventing competition you can make the very coarse high level decision to compete or not to compete but not the finer low level decisions about individual fences.

I no longer climb but I still back country ski (an activity with a ridiculous number of fatalities in recent years). I have total control over my activities skiing, like mountaineering. In one way it makes it very difficult to reduce the overall fatalities as: young men do crazy stuff with impunity. In another way I am much safer individually. So not a fair comparison.

[vineyridge]

There are option routes at many UL complexes that tend to be very costly in the time elapsed if chosen, but they are never available at straightforward single jumps. In order for the rider to be competitive, it’s very unusual for the options to be chosen.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8665397]
The vests make a ton of sense to me too, right now that’s all there is and rotational falls seem to be a numbers game. Very low likelihood but high consequences.

Gnep and RAyers- did you also test the air vests like the Point Two? There is video on YouTube of Coral Keens fall and it does seem to protect her.[/QUOTE]

No never had an air vest. I have serious doubts if any of the air vest will handle 1200 plus pounds of minimum impact. Don’t forget it is 1200 or so pounds that slam into you, with 20 miles or more an hour and from lets say 3 feet hights.
The egg heads probably could tell us how much that is in pounds, 2 tons 3 tons and so on. I do not think any material of an air vest would be able to stop those forces. Even with an Exo, the impact is gigantic, it just nocks the living whillees out of you. It is just humongous.
The air vest does not work like an air bag, it inflats and stays that way. Since it can not deflated it would just explode on impact or if not would transfer the energy directly to the riders body, because they are so tight, onces inflated.
The Exo has a lot of room, so it can absorb the energy, by flexing. Its all about energy absorbtion and release and not letting it to get to the mushroom in the device, or as little as possible.
On a normal fall the air vest works just right, there is enough stretch in the material to allow on the impact point a deflation, to absorb and distribute the energy through the rest of the vest. That’s how they work and that’s how they would kill you in a rotation bulls eye hit. Newton.

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8665743]
54 in 18.5 years works out to slightly less than 3 per year. That’s still too many, but it’s also not quite the end of the world. Especially since the number of starts has increased dramatically.[/QUOTE]

I know you didn’t mean to sound so callous, but reading your reply makes my stomach ache. :no:

[Thylacine]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8156323]
oh I didn’t say they shouldn’t join the discussion, just sayin’ why join if all you have to contribute is the same ol’ “eventing is dangerous” comment. It isn’t helpful.

manah…are you sure there isn’t an increase? 5 riders in the last year and 5 horses, 2 more just over a year. Two falls with serious injuries in the last few weeks that easily could be deaths. Is 5 rider deaths in a year not considered the sky falling?

Maybe I am just too soft for this anymore.

Fittobetied - I guess I am not proposing anything, just hoping to keep the discussion happening so that these issues won’t be forgotten. I am not a research scientist, I don’t know where to begin. But I sure as hell will be one of the biggest supporters of creating ideas that will improve the safety of our sport. Real ideas, not ideas like making air vests mandatory.

We’ve lost too many in our sport…it needs to stop. At the very least, effort needs to be made.[/QUOTE]

attending the funerals of once-upon-a-time good event rider is one thing.
2 funerals within 6weeks for 2 vibrant teenage girls is just too much.

it’s just fucking ridiculous.

“dangerous” means you might/could break a leg/arm/pelvis, at least that’s what it used to mean. Eventing nowadays is killing more people than formula one car racing and its got to stop.

perhaps event orgainisers could helpfully include a list of local to the area Funeral Directors and the competitor could tick the preferred box on the entry form so at least the dead riders family is saved that inconvenience should their teenager be the unlucky lottery winner for that particular event.

eventing NEVER used to be like this.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8665595]
In fairness we did tons of idiotic stuff and only stuck to the rules because we knew it meant instant death if we didn’t. No cattle grates, no metal fences, close gates, no jumping outside the trimmed areas on hedges. We knew very well the consequences as they were described in graphic detail.

Like any other humans we didn’t tend to predict consequences well without that experience. I had a friend who would ride her pony down to meet the bus in a halter then just let him go and he’d go a half mile home by himself. Her very expensive show pony. Her mother nearly had a seizure when she found out.[/QUOTE]

Really, you did not do that stuff, honestly, come on, please.
I had to do 4 horses, as a teen and a rather sweet girl friend waiting and a 8 hour job on the side. Since conditioning was a major job at that time I never wasted any time. Had to get around several mile of property to get back to the barn. Short way was pop a 5 feet fence in the forest on a down slope, meshed wire with a wooden rail on top, than just get through the hay field pop a nother one and than take the tracktor trail in a good angle to make it fit onto the dressage arena, nice bounce at 5 feet and be done and get on the next rogue bastard, we called horse and start all over. 15 minutes saved per horse. If my father was around, well you did the long way, or took a chance to get beaten up with lead line, hook first.
Me and my brothers had no idea, that anything could kill us ever. We are still laughing about the insanity

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8664650]
I bought an Exo but have not had great luck using it. Have ridden at home but not xc so far. I can start another thread if people prefer, but since there seem to be some fans on this thread, my questions:

1. Mine rides up, as I ride the top of the shoulders come up level to about my ears (which seems like it would be bad in a fall as I’d catch my jaw). Does that mean it is too small? I have the A4, and am probably a medium sized person, larger sized woman (5’9, 155). I don’t believe they make a larger size.

2. I understand the positives of the crush protection, but the rigidity makes me feel like it might be a liability in more minor falls, preventing a softer tuck landing, is this correct? (IOW, good for UL x-c where the crush risk is higher, but maybe not best for daily baby schooling where you’re more likely to want to tuck and roll?)

FWIW, for all the complaints about weight, that aspect doesn’t bother me at all. I can’t put mine on myself which is a limitation, and the process feels a bit indelicate to involve randoms in the parking area, so I have only worn one when accompanied by a helper, but once on it feels ok except for the extreme riding up.

Thoughts, anyone who has one?

Thanks!![/QUOTE]

My first Exo was an A4, and after a year of wearing it (and having it ride up to my ears), I bought the next size down and had much better luck. This one rides up a little bit but not to the extreme that my A4 did.

I also ended up cutting some of the foam off the “tail” part, which was hitting the cantle of my saddle and causing it to shift. (Used a seam ripper to cut open the fabric, exacto knife-d the foam, then sewed/glued the fabric back over it. Much better!)

I’m able to get mine on by myself, but it took some practice. :yes: Learning to “feel” for the latches and know when they’re lined up correctly without having to look is key.

I wear mine whenever I school XC (and in competition, obviously), and when I do canter sets. The main reason for wearing it during the latter is because it’s good weight training for my body!!

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=subk;8664998]
I agree with most of what LAZ is saying here.

BUT, whether it is research, technologically advanced safety equipment, or review commissions of catastrophic events much of what is being discussed here is very, very expensive and will make this sport cost prohibitive for all but the very wealthy. For example: carbon fiber vests sound great–raise your hand if you are willing/able to pay a couple grand for one.

Don’t get me wrong–I’m all for figuring out how to make things safer and have made donations in the past to some of these things, but there is a sobering reality to financing the whole big picture that most people seem to ignore.[/QUOTE]

i have no idea what they could be produced for, but I’m sure it would not be cheap. BUT–crush injuries generally happen at the upper levels so I don’t see they would be needed at the early levels if one didn’t want one. I’ve not kept up with the technology but when I was racing carbon fiber panels were being formed much the same as fiberglass with molds which could make them highly customizable for those that did want one, and if science says a horse could slam down on top of you and you could walk away from it, if it were light weight and easily wearable I suspect there would be folks that would buy them.

The trick would be getting started on the R & D and prototypes.

it would not prevent injuries of getting kicked in the head/neck by a horse scrambling up but I think it could work for chest/torso protection.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Thylacine;8665941]
attending the funerals of once-upon-a-time good event rider is one thing.
2 funerals within 6weeks for 2 vibrant teenage girls is just too much.

it’s just fucking ridiculous.

“dangerous” means you might/could break a leg/arm/pelvis, at least that’s what it used to mean. Eventing nowadays is killing more people than formula one car racing and its got to stop.

perhaps event orgainisers could helpfully include a list of local to the area Funeral Directors and the competitor could tick the preferred box on the entry form so at least the dead riders family is saved that inconvenience should their teenager be the unlucky lottery winner for that particular event.

eventing NEVER used to be like this.[/QUOTE]

Eventing has always been that way and that is the point. When I was 18 two of my friends, with whom I rode team, club team, we were the most successful team ever in our state, were killed. They even did not make 21, which was adult. Of the eight kids I rode with, its 3 that are still kicking. The rest had a little mishap eventing.
Years ago I started to train a wonderfull group of young kids, pony clubers. When the parents decided to hire me as their coach, we had a little meeting and I explained to them in very drastic words, what they would get into.
Simple as that, your daughter and son will end up in the hospital with broken bones and might even get killed and my job is to make the injury as little as possible and prevent as much as I can that nobody gets killed

That’s a as honest as possible reality check.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8665966]
My first Exo was an A4, and after a year of wearing it (and having it ride up to my ears), I bought the next size down and had much better luck. This one rides up a little bit but not to the extreme that my A4 did.

I also ended up cutting some of the foam off the “tail” part, which was hitting the cantle of my saddle and causing it to shift. (Used a seam ripper to cut open the fabric, exacto knife-d the foam, then sewed/glued the fabric back over it. Much better!)

I’m able to get mine on by myself, but it took some practice. :yes: Learning to “feel” for the latches and know when they’re lined up correctly without having to look is key.

I wear mine whenever I school XC (and in competition, obviously), and when I do canter sets. The main reason for wearing it during the latter is because it’s good weight training for my body!![/QUOTE]

This is a very good post. Our safety equipment is base on one size fits all, but it does not. I had to adjust or trim every vest to make it fit. Mostly the tail end, to long. You have to be able to sit down in the saddle without the vest pushing up.
Same with the Exo, tail to long for me. Cut it of, period.
If it still rides up, in the 2 point, the belts need to be adjusted. Its basicly like a rucksack.
The other point of the post, if you are only use your vest for competion, you put yourself in danger. You are not used to it, its a burden, it throws you of balance.
Use it every day, to the point you feel naked without it. That seat belt thingy

[Beam_Me_Up]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8665966]
My first Exo was an A4, and after a year of wearing it (and having it ride up to my ears), I bought the next size down and had much better luck. This one rides up a little bit but not to the extreme that my A4 did.

I also ended up cutting some of the foam off the “tail” part, which was hitting the cantle of my saddle and causing it to shift. (Used a seam ripper to cut open the fabric, exacto knife-d the foam, then sewed/glued the fabric back over it. Much better!)

I’m able to get mine on by myself, but it took some practice. :yes: Learning to “feel” for the latches and know when they’re lined up correctly without having to look is key.

I wear mine whenever I school XC (and in competition, obviously), and when I do canter sets. The main reason for wearing it during the latter is because it’s good weight training for my body!![/QUOTE]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback! I doubt I could cram myself into a smaller one (even this one is a challenge) but it is good to know that with practice it gets easier to get on! Someone mentioned upthread that the riding up was part of the design, so perhaps i don’t need to be as worried about it as I had thought. I was really excited to have and use one, I just haven’t had great luck getting this one to fit me well. I think part of it is that the inner padding/fitting is so separate from the cage and perhaps needs more adjusting too.

[CSU92]

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8665790]
2015 FEI statistics.

http://www.fei.org/system/files/FEI_StatisticsReport_2005-2015_26.02.2016.pdf

Some excerpts:

Later down it says the rate of fatality per starts is .0058, or 1 fatal fall every 17,317 starts.

For comparison, your chances of dying while attempting to climb Mt. Everest is 2.5 ish percent.

Both are high risk activities where the participant understands a high level of danger is inherent to the thing they are about to attempt. There is a good deal of personal responsibility in ensuring you are physically and mentally prepared for the task.

From page 21 - Serious injury and death has decreased from +/- .3 in 2005, dropping significantly in 2009 when there was a huge safety push. It has remained under .2 since then[/QUOTE]

thanks for the link

It would be interesting to see injury rates within the levels of competition to see if the overall reduction in injury rates is solely due to the increase in numbers of starters in the lower levels.

[Mischievous]

[QUOTE=Thylacine;8665941]
attending the funerals of once-upon-a-time good event rider is one thing.
2 funerals within 6weeks for 2 vibrant teenage girls is just too much.

it’s just fucking ridiculous.

“dangerous” means you might/could break a leg/arm/pelvis, at least that’s what it used to mean. Eventing nowadays is killing more people than formula one car racing and its got to stop.

perhaps event orgainisers could helpfully include a list of local to the area Funeral Directors and the competitor could tick the preferred box on the entry form so at least the dead riders family is saved that inconvenience should their teenager be the unlucky lottery winner for that particular event.

eventing NEVER used to be like this.[/QUOTE]

I understand your concern, but eventing has ALWAYS been like this. ALWAYS. The only difference is the internet and the access to information that we didn’t used to have access too.

As a matter of fact RIDING has always been like this. I have attended more equine caused funerals than I care to count in my 30+ years in this business, and NONE of them have been eventing, or even jumping deaths.

The only way to stop the riding deaths is to stop riding horses. Perhaps we should stop riding them. If the riders who die eventing is too many and the sport should stop, then aren’t the ones who die NOT eventing just as important, and shouldn’t we stop all riding?

I am not trying to be snarky, but I am struggling with this question right now. In my experience more people die just riding horses than die eventing, so why no calls for action about that? Shouldn’t we be questioning all horse activity? If not, why not? I am really having a hard time separating the two.

Are eventers lives more important than other horsemen’s lives? If eventers deaths are unacceptable and cause us to question the sport, why are other horsemen’s deaths not causing the same consideration and discussion about ending equestrienne sport altogether?

Does anyone have statistics for general equine deaths per participant vs. eventing deaths per participant?

[vineyridge]

People and horses belong together and have been together for several thousands of years. If there is no horse sport, what is the rationale for the existence of domesticated horses in this motor world?

I’d say, “Don’t be so silly, unless you are also willing to not ride in or drive an automobile, or own a gun.”

[Badger]

@Mischievous;8666965

I understand your concern, but eventing has ALWAYS been like this. ALWAYS. The only difference is the internet and the access to information that we didn’t used to have access too.

If it’s always been this way and we are just now aware of the severity of the risk because we finally have access to the information, then we should process the new information, learn from it, and make changes. Anything less is the proverbial sticking your head in the sand (an illustration of blocking all new information input). Sticking your head in the sand is not the proper response to a growing realization of how high the deadly risk to horse and humans really is. I am sickened by GNEPs story about the eight riders he was on a young rider team with, and he is one of only three still around, the rest (if I am reading the post right) died eventing at some point.

Holy.

Crap.

Not reasonable, not sustainable.

[QUOTE=Mischievous;8666965] In my experience more people die just riding horses than die eventing, so why no calls for action about that? Shouldn’t we be questioning all horse activity? If not, why not? I am really having a hard time separating the two.

Are eventers lives more important than other horsemen’s lives? If eventers deaths are unacceptable and cause us to question the sport, why are other horsemen’s deaths not causing the same consideration and discussion about ending equestrienne sport altogether?

Does anyone have statistics for general equine deaths per participant vs. eventing deaths per participant?[/QUOTE]

Eventers are susceptible to the same general horseman risk factors of getting kicked in the pasture, or riding a horse that stumbles or spooks into a tree, etc. What we have that sets us apart is X-c. That is where our risk skyrockets over almost all other horse sports, if not all. And if you look at the risk of specifically cross-country jumping, look at the minutes spent on x-c course in competition, the risk for the horse and rider goes way up in those minutes. When it comes to rotational falls, the deadliest ones, those almost always are from jumping. So for the actual time spent jumping obstacles, that is a fraction of the time riders are on the course itself.

It is this activity, jumping solid fences at speed in competition, that is proving so very deadly. If you look at the amount of time spent in that core high risk activity, and run stats, I don’t know what activities are going to average out to being riskier than the time spent navigating the actual xc obstacles. People have mentioned motor cycle racing, climbing Everest, and swimming in shark infest waters. All of those activities are spreading their extreme risk out over a much greater time period than we do on xc. So those moments of navigating an upperlevel xc fence in competition (on the clock and at speed) may be some of the riskiest moments in sports.

I’ve been giving this whole issue a lot of thought the last several days and am examinimg my future with the sport. I’ve been eventing for a couple of decades. I love eventers. We are a great group to brush things off, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, grit our teeth and ride through pain, and proudly kick on. I think that a lot of people have that reaction right now. I read it in this thread. I see it in the understanding of the decision not to cancel the event, etc. But there is a time NOT to kick on. There is a time to notice the heat and swelling in the horse’s leg and to stop everything, to abandon plans, to call the vet and ultrasound and ice and try stem cell therapy and whatever it takes to minimize the injury and start the recovery in hopes you still have a horse to compete in the future.

I think the sport is at that point. Kick on now and risk a career-ending injury or worse, or stop everything and fix it if you still can.

[Gry2Yng]

We are all talking about vests, and it is my understanding of the incident that the horse DID land on the rider. But I have also been told that the horse stepped on her head whilst attempting to stand. So let’s not get too caught up in the vest discussion.

[redalter]

[QUOTE=Badger;8667096]
If it’s always been this way and we are just now aware of the severity of the risk because we finally have access to the information, then we should process the new information, learn from it, and make changes. Anything less is the proverbial sticking your head in the sand (an illustration of blocking all new information input). Sticking your head in the sand is not the proper response to a growing realization of how high the deadly risk to horse and humans really is. I am sickened by GNEPs story about the eight riders he was on a young rider team with, and he is one of only three still around, the rest (if I am reading the post right) died eventing at some point.

Holy.

Crap.

Not reasonable, not sustainable.

Eventers are susceptible to the same general horseman risk factors of getting kicked in the pasture, or riding a horse that stumbles or spooks into a tree, etc. What we have that sets us apart is X-c. That is where our risk skyrockets over almost all other horse sports, if not all. And if you look at the risk of specifically cross-country jumping, look at the minutes spent on x-c course in competition, the risk for the horse and rider goes way up in those minutes. When it comes to rotational falls, the deadliest ones, those almost always are from jumping. So for the actual time spent jumping obstacles, that is a fraction of the time riders are on the course itself.

It is this activity, jumping solid fences at speed in competition, that is proving so very deadly. If you look at the amount of time spent in that core high risk activity, and run stats, I don’t know what activities are going to average out to being riskier than the time spent navigating the actual xc obstacles. People have mentioned motor cycle racing, climbing Everest, and swimming in shark infest waters. All of those activities are spreading their extreme risk out over a much greater time period than we do on xc. So those moments of navigating an upperlevel xc fence in competition (on the clock and at speed) may be some of the riskiest moments in sports.

I’ve been giving this whole issue a lot of thought the last several days and am examinimg my future with the sport. I’ve been eventing for a couple of decades. I love eventers. We are a great group to brush things off, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, grit our teeth and ride through pain, and proudly kick on. I think that a lot of people have that reaction right now. I read it in this thread. I see it in the understanding of the decision not to cancel the event, etc. But there is a time NOT to kick on. There is a time to notice the heat and swelling in the horse’s leg and to stop everything, to abandon plans, to call the vet and ultrasound and ice and try stem cell therapy and whatever it takes to minimize the injury and start the recovery in hopes you still have a horse to compete in the future.

I think the sport is at that point. Kick on now and risk a career-ending injury or worse, or stop everything and fix it if you still can.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this post.

[vineyridge]

I may be wrong because it’s hardly an organized sport, but foxhunting involves riding XC over terrain and natural obstacles, and it doesn’t seem to have as many horse and rider deaths. So two thoughts–event riders used to foxhunt and in the US, most no longer do. The more experience with cross country riding the better.

Second thought–perhaps the mere fact that jumps are designed to be certain heights and widths over and over again and in complexes increases the danger. Foxhunters have been known to jump 4 and 5 bar fences, but usually only once or twice per day, if then. Foxhunters ride in water, jump solid fences, go at a gallop over terrain, jumping whatever is in the way (in first field). They do banks and drops. Heck, when I was a teenager, my hunt used to carry rolls of black plastic so they could wrap barbed wire, and we’d jump the fence. No one died, and no horses were ever broken that I saw. In New Zealand, their hunters jump naked electric wire fences that have substantial height.

Given that, I’d put my money on the unceasing technicality of today’s XC courses and the effect on the human and horse brain.