WTF Are We Doing?

[Sticky_Situation]

I disagree with the statements saying that none of the upper level riders that have commented have given the impression that they are receptive to change. I feel that it is quite the opposite … Many of them have even proposed their own ideas about what can be done to make the sport safer. Just because they haven’t overwhelmingly said as a group “none of us are going to compete above Novice until there is a 0% chance of a catastrophic fall” doesn’t mean they are all totally fine with the status quo and would oppose changes to make it safer.

What I have NOT seen is a specific plan by the USEF, USEA, or FEI on how to proceed. I dont know the specifics on how the safety committee works, but I would like to see concrete recommendations with a time frame … For example, things along the lines of, “Tables with faces less than xxx degrees from vertical above 3’ will be no longer be included in competitions by 2017” or “by the beginning of the 2018 competition season all solid fences above xxx height must have a collapsible/frangible feature in place.”

Do we have all the data? No, but we do have some, and even in other industries (medicine, aviation, etc) recommendations must be made with the information available and if necessary, revised later on to accommodate additional information as it becomes available.

Will it cost money to change things? Absolutely. In the examples I gave above, events would need to build or retrofit fences to comply with the new rules, which could potentially be expensive. I know that, although I compete on a budget as much as anyone, I would be okay with having entry fees increase a bit if it meant keeping my horse and me and other competitors safer.

I don’t see waiting for change to come from the FEI, because that is likely a certain way to guarantee nothing will be done.

[Winding_Down]

What bothers me the most about many of the posts on this thread (and others) is that many seem uninterested in working toward effecting change, figuring out how we can contribute to that change, and channeling all of our energy in a forward direction. Instead, many of the posts point fingers, blame, accuse others of not caring, stating that it’s all because of the short format, etc etc etc

What good does it do to rant against whoever YOU think is responsible, implying that the “Powers” and “ULRs” are callous and uncaring.

Then people come on here and blast a friend of Philippa who wrote a touching tribute as a way to cope and help others cope with their tragic loss.

I find all of this tiring. Really tiring.

And then there are those who accuse and blame who also state that they will not contribute to research funds (that are going to the University of Kentucky Research Project(s)) because they don’t trust the research.

I only keep reading and posting because I am passionate about eventing and passionate about making it a safer sport… and I am committed to ways to make that happen.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8673430]
What bothers me the most about many of the posts on this thread (and others) is that many seem uninterested in working toward effecting change, figuring out how we can contribute to that change, and channeling all of our energy in a forward direction. Instead, many of the posts point fingers, blame, accuse others of not caring, stating that it’s all because of the short format, etc etc etc

What good does it do to rant against whoever YOU think is responsible, implying that the “Powers” and “ULRs” are callous and uncaring.

Then people come on here and blast a friend of Philippa who wrote a touching tribute as a way to cope and help others cope with their tragic loss.

I find all of this tiring. Really tiring.

And then there are those who accuse and blame who also state that they will not contribute to research funds (that are going to the University of Kentucky Research Project(s)) because they don’t trust the research.

I only keep reading and posting because I am passionate about eventing and passionate about making it a safer sport… and I am committed to ways to make that happen.[/QUOTE]

Can’t you see how very different “the freak accident” mindset, exemplified by two of the International people at the very highest level of the sport–the last two chairmen of the FEI Eventing Committee–is from the “low probability” mindset? One is saying the equivalent of “Death is God’s will, and nothing we can do can stop it”, and the other is saying "How can something that recurs regularly from the same causes ever be considered “a freak”?

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8671963]
No, we have studied and studied and studied. How old is the frangible pin study, I aint going to google for it, 10 years, 15 years. Eventing is still studing and than will do a nother study.

Eventing has never said a fatality is not acceptable.

Other high risk sports, I use motor sports for my examples, quiet simply said a fatality is not acceptable, period.
They threw what ever money it took to reach that goal in a minimum time.
If you look at a F1 car, it is so narrow that you can hardly fit a person into it, but it will protect a person from a 200 mile, 40g impact and than the follow ups at 20g, multiple impacts. It is jus a glove so to speak, if it brakes, the thing inside is dead.

When has there been a demand by the FEI for better vests, or helmets. There is none, the USEA, the FN. They just play along with their sponsors.

Accidents will happen, that’s the nature of the sport. Nobody will or can deny that. You can not build a jump save enough that they will not happen, its impossible. But we have to make those accidents none fatale.
First goal should be to develop a protective gear for the rider, that will allow him/her to survive the most brutal of the accidents, getting smashed into pulp by the horse, helmets and vests, Exo system. You give the suppliers a reasonable date and the proper test requirements and by day X, only those equipments are allowed. This is what other high risk sports do.
If a vest can not handle the force of 2000 or maybe 3000 lbs crashing down on it, it aint no good.
You want to make money, solve the problem. But remember you vest will be illegal on date X, the money maker.
Next thing would be horses and the jumps, this is were one would have to spent some of their own money. Hire some serious pros and give them the goal to develop the technology for the jumps, without changing the nature of the jump. That is going to be costly. But if F1 can simulate every race track, within a few 100 of a second and built and set up the car for it, with out actually testing that equipment, live.

Come on.

Eventing has pushed that ball far to long in front of it.

It has to do what other high risk sport did, no more and than make the proper changes, not tomorrow but today.

Evnting is not looking in its own mirror, does not dare and if it does not do it, its just a matter of time.[/QUOTE]

Gnep - if you cannot look at this article and say that there are things the eventing community could implement in order to improve then my conclusion is that you just want to be angry. I could be wrong, but these are best practices. How are we hurt by using them?

ETA: “A fatality is not acceptable.” Is this not disingenuous? No one wants to die. No one wants to see anyone die. If accidents will happen as you state, then how can you also say a fatality is not acceptable. Why is it wrong to say that death is part of life?

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8673503]
Can’t you see how very different “the freak accident” mindset, exemplified by two of the International people at the very highest level of the sport–the last two chairmen of the FEI Eventing Committee–is from the “low probability” mindset? One is saying the equivalent of “Death is God’s will, and nothing we can do can stop it”, and the other is saying "How can something that recurs regularly from the same causes ever be considered “a freak”?[/QUOTE]

that is two people. In the past. They do not exemplify a mindset! Just like any isolated post in this forum does not represent a “mindset!”

Please people! Please read articles such as LLaw and others! Why why why must you sit back and assume that everyone in the center of our sport is somehow evil.

[findeight]

Nobody said they were evil. Just apparently still stuck in the old kick on mentality and they give the perception fatalities on course are just expected parts of Eventing. They need to change the perception at the very least.

[flyingchange]

I am sure I’ll get flamed for my thoughts, but here they are -

Horses.Are.Dangerous.Period.

No amount of research, hysteria, finger-pointing, a.c. quarterbacking will ever remove the risk associated with riding horses across country and pointing them at solid obstacles that they have, in most cases, never seen before, or if they have seen said obstacle, it was probably placed differently in years’ past.

Billions have been spent on reducing incidence of fatal car crashes. Newsflash: people die every minute as a result of getting into a car. It’s a risk that they take. And that they accept for their dependents.

According to FEI data , nicely summarized by EN, incidence of rotational falls has gone down over the past 10 years. Some of you act like nothing has been done or is being done to reduce these falls but measures are being taken. Did you think that there would be an instant elimination of rotational falls with the uproar that occurred in the eventing community five to ten years ago? FACT: risk will never, ever be reduced to zero. It is a mathematical impossibility. As heartbreaking as Phillipa’s death is, it is a risk that she willingly took. And if you event, or drive a car, or get out of the bed in the morning, you are taking a risk with your life too - although to varying degrees based on the activity. The fact is, the probability of a life-ending fall occurring out riding XC is very, very, very minute when assessed non-emotionally and via data analysis. BUT, the risk is and will always be there. And yes, all you dressage- and H/J riders - you put your horses at risk too. Every time you take him/her out of the stall, make him/her walk across concrete in steel shoes, load him/her onto a trailer, expose him or her unnecessarily to viruses and bacteria when you insist on injecting his/her joints. The list goes on and on. It’s the risk that you are willing to take after you have done the math and decided whether you are willing to accept it or not. None of us is beyond the reach of risk - and if we endeavor into an activity as high-risk as horses, we accept the possibility of death as an outcome. We can all choose to hole up and not do horses to alleviate that risk, but that’s not who we are.

It’s very hard for some to know what to do with the emotion they feel when someone passes as a result of endeavoring into a sport they they themselves participate in. And we see a great deal of misplaced anger and whining here on this board and beyond. It’s as if some of you just realized that this is a deadly sport. I am left wondering if that’s what you thought all along? And if so, why on earth do you participate in it? Eventing always has been and always will be a dangerous sport. And since it’s inception, that danger has been a part of it. And the fact is, statistically, the risk of death via rotational fall IS going down. BUT, it will never be totally eliminated. It’s a part of this sport that is very hard to swallow but it is the reality. And nobody is immune. Because, basically, shit happens.

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=findeight;8673854]
Nobody said they were evil. Just apparently still stuck in the old kick on mentality and they give the perception fatalities on course are just expected parts of Eventing. They need to change the perception at the very least.[/QUOTE]

00cab12a32c64633114da0bc89d32897.jpg

[Gry2Yng]

“Be careful how you interpret the world: It is like that.”

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=findeight;8673854]
Nobody said they were evil. Just apparently still stuck in the old kick on mentality and they give the perception fatalities on course are just expected parts of Eventing. They need to change the perception at the very least.[/QUOTE]

“Be careful how you interpret the world: It is like that.” (attributed to many, but true none the less)

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8673864]
“Be careful how you interpret the world: It is like that.” (attributed to many, but true none the less)[/QUOTE]

Erich Heller?

[vineyridge]

Della Chiesa is far from past. He is overseeing the changes in eventing today as head of the FEI Eventing Committee. Roycroft, you could say, is past because he left the FEI in 2009, but he happens to be head of eventing for Australia, unless I’m remembering wrong.

Heck, we can’t even get a rule through US Eventing that requires certified safety vests, much less a requirement for something like the EXO.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8673797]
Gnep - if you cannot look at this article and say that there are things the eventing community could implement in order to improve then my conclusion is that you just want to be angry. I could be wrong, but these are best practices. How are we hurt by using them?

ETA: “A fatality is not acceptable.” Is this not disingenuous? No one wants to die. No one wants to see anyone die. If accidents will happen as you state, then how can you also say a fatality is not acceptable. Why is it wrong to say that death is part of life?[/QUOTE]

I do not see a clear goal setting and I have jet to hear from any or the orgs that in the future a fatality is deemed unacceptable.
A clear goal setting would be, develop the proper safety gear for the rider by the end of 2017 and than make it mandatory, vest/helmet.
Develop design and engineering for tables and similar jumps, so that a rotational is next to impossible, by the end of 2018 and than make those mandatory at FEI and P-A.
Or something like this, have a investigation into any jump, that has more than 2 crashes during a show, with the goal to prevent future crashes, even if it means that the jump either has to be removed or completely rebuilt.

Right now the sport is muddling along, does something here, than something there, without clear cut goals and time tables.
And the sport has to change its wordings when it comes to dealing with accidents and it can only do that if there is a clear cut agenda, with goals and time tables.
Finances, I am a business man, if I have to go to my banker for a loan, I have to present him/her a business plan, with clear cut goals and time tables. If I come with a wishy washy agenda, than they will not give me any money.
Same for donations, if you can approach sponsors or doners with a well worked out business plan, goals, time tables and a cost calculations, than you have a rather good chance to raise that money.

I have jet to see that, starting at the FEI and than coming down to national organisations.

If lets say the USEA or the USEF, would say we hire the Hass racing organization to engineer and produce a crush proof vest and they have given an estimate for development and prototype built of ball park 100k, they could crowd fund that in now time. They could probably raise 5 times the money from all over the world.
Goals, time tables, business plan

[asterix]

There is a good piece in EN about using practices and skill sets from other industries to improve safety. We need to find a way to get the USEA to commit to a process like this, explicitly using expertise from outside eventing where applicable.

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=JP60;8672970]
With all due respect, her article does little on both fronts.

First, Eventing is not akin to climbing Mt Everest, an the act of climbing it is not a sport. There is a vast difference between the two which make it a bad comparison. Eventing has rules, strict guidelines that define how we ride and what we ride against. Everest does not. When people die on K2, Everest, Danali that is purely on their own choice of risk, not based on a competition.

Eventing, at the highest level is not climbing Everest, it is just the culmination of training in a series of events that test the capability of horse and rider. Everest is a crap shoot, Rolex, Jersey Fresh should not.

So my point is that the PTB have NOT done all they can to reduce risk since we are still talking about it. LGL says remove tables…has it been done? No so we’ve not done anything yet. The rabble says change the style of the courses to focus on endurance, not technical questions and have we done it no.

But are they? Hardly

So please, we’ve not done a damn thing to really change the nature of this sport to date.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you can start your own, independent task force on this matter; it seems you have a very clear vision for where it should go and how to resolve problems.

[gardenie]

This

[QUOTE=flyingchange;8673860]
I am sure I’ll get flamed for my thoughts, but here they are -

Horses.Are.Dangerous.Period.

No amount of research, hysteria, finger-pointing, a.c. quarterbacking will ever remove the risk associated with riding horses across country and pointing them at solid obstacles that they have, in most cases, never seen before, or if they have seen said obstacle, it was probably placed differently in years’ past.

Billions have been spent on reducing incidence of fatal car crashes. Newsflash: people die every minute as a result of getting into a car. It’s a risk that they take. And that they accept for their dependents.

According to FEI data , nicely summarized by EN, incidence of rotational falls has gone down over the past 10 years. Some of you act like nothing has been done or is being done to reduce these falls but measures are being taken. Did you think that there would be an instant elimination of rotational falls with the uproar that occurred in the eventing community five to ten years ago? FACT: risk will never, ever be reduced to zero. It is a mathematical impossibility. As heartbreaking as Phillipa’s death is, it is a risk that she willingly took. And if you event, or drive a car, or get out of the bed in the morning, you are taking a risk with your life too - although to varying degrees based on the activity. The fact is, the probability of a life-ending fall occurring out riding XC is very, very, very minute when assessed non-emotionally and via data analysis. BUT, the risk is and will always be there. And yes, all you dressage- and H/J riders - you put your horses at risk too. Every time you take him/her out of the stall, make him/her walk across concrete in steel shoes, load him/her onto a trailer, expose him or her unnecessarily to viruses and bacteria when you insist on injecting his/her joints. The list goes on and on. It’s the risk that you are willing to take after you have done the math and decided whether you are willing to accept it or not. None of us is beyond the reach of risk - and if we endeavor into an activity as high-risk as horses, we accept the possibility of death as an outcome. We can all choose to hole up and not do horses to alleviate that risk, but that’s not who we are.

It’s very hard for some to know what to do with the emotion they feel when someone passes as a result of endeavoring into a sport they they themselves participate in. And we see a great deal of misplaced anger and whining here on this board and beyond. It’s as if some of you just realized that this is a deadly sport. I am left wondering if that’s what you thought all along? And if so, why on earth do you participate in it? Eventing always has been and always will be a dangerous sport. And since it’s inception, that danger has been a part of it. And the fact is, statistically, the risk of death via rotational fall IS going down. BUT, it will never be totally eliminated. It’s a part of this sport that is very hard to swallow but it is the reality. And nobody is immune. Because, basically, shit happens.[/QUOTE]

[vineyridge]

JER has been saying the same thing for many years. It’s not as if her thoughts are new.

If Formula One can prevent deaths from crashes, why can’t Eventing?

[Littleluck55]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8674334]
JER has been saying the same thing for many years. It’s not as if her thoughts are new.

If Formula One can prevent deaths from crashes, why can’t Eventing?[/QUOTE]

Formula One can reduce deaths, not prevent them. They had a Formula One death last year from a race.

[ksbadger]

[QUOTE=tbchick84;8671896]
In the interest of preventing accidents in the first place, would it make sense to add comparing a horse’s resting heart rate when first presented and then compared to his/her return to resting rate following XC in order to start establishing some data on how many horses are actually fit enough to do the job? It literally takes a minute to check the resting rate, so I cannot see it creating a huge crimp in a competitor’s day.[/QUOTE]

The Vet Check post XC has been a feature of Canadian Eventing for decades.

[JER]

Here’s an example of another sport taking safety seriously – and this was after ONE high-profile competition death.

The sport is fencing, the year is 1982, the city is Rome. The current Olympic and world champion in foil (a light flexible weapon), a Ukraine-born Soviet athlete called Vladimir Smirnov is in an early-round bout against a German fencer. Smirnov is a huge star in a small sport. He’s so good that not only did he win individual gold in foil at the 1980 Olympics, he also won team bronze in epee, which is a totally different weapon with different rules, target area, etc. This is the fencing equivalent of winning individual gold in dressage, then taking bronze in the show jumping team event.

The German fencer and Smirnov make simultaneous attacks and the German’s blade breaks on Smirnov’s chest. A broken fencing blade is useless for fencing (you can only score by pressing the electric point into your opponent) but it makes a pretty damn fearsome jagged knife.

Then the blade bounces off Smirnov’s chest and goes through his metal wire-mesh mask, through his eye, and into his brain. It was obviously all over for Smirnov, but due to idiosyncrasies of Italian law (which also factored into how Ayrton Senna’s death at Imola was handled), Smirnov is kept on life support for 10 days so the tournament can continue.

Fencing’s governing body – the FIE – could have said ‘Freak accident. Really. In the past 100 years, there have been 7 fencing deaths, so really, the odds are so small, how can it possibly be a problem?’

But that’s not what fencing said. They said ‘No more deaths in competition.’ In came new materials and testing procedures for uniforms, underarm protectors, plastic chest protectors, masks and gloves. The old steel blades were replaced by maraging steel, which is stronger and breaks in a safer manner. This was a total overhaul of all of the equipment and wearables, and at every competition now, you go through equipment control or you don’t fence.

This was the response to ONE SINGLE DEATH.

And that was the last death in a fencing competition.