This fence doesn’t have a ground line. It’s a big flat table with a log in front, but the log is elevated, not on the ground, and the log doesn’t substantially create a sloped or step profile to the front face of the fence. Fake flowers are placed in the dirt below the log.
Elsewhere someone said it was at the end of a long gallop, that is true. It’s also true that the gallop is somewhat downhill, and that the fence is just out of a corner. The gallop runs along the “north” side of the property, the fence is along the “west” side just out of the corner. So the horse has a longish, slightly downhill gallop, and a curved line to this fence. There is a large oak tree on the right side, depending on the time of day, it can be partially shading the jump. (Click thru the photos starting at my link above, you will see some horses in dappled shadow, some in sun.)
[QUOTE=jcdill;8891384]
It’s a big flat table… [/QUOTE]
Why are we still asking horses to jump flat tables?
I recall this type of jump first being identified as a problem in the early-mid 1990s. Yet they persist.
For all of msghook’s talk about what’s being done, I continue to scratch my head at the continued presence of obstacles types - flat tables, open corners/oxers - that are known to be no-mistake jumps for horses.
Msghook - thank you, I’m glad to hear that there is in fact a lot more data collection going on. We aren’t “done” but your post indicates that progress has been, and is continuing to be made.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8889824]
Well, if we’re doing this “thought experiment” … if we were serious about traffic safety, we would shut down all the roads in a county any time there was a fatal accident.
Lots of people might lose their jobs or go hungry, but then maybe something would be done about traffic safety.[/QUOTE]
I have lived in various urban and no urban areas, but in general, it does seem that in the case of a fatality ON THE site of the accident, roads are shut down. Here, we have more one lane each direction, but at the VERY least, say if there are 6+ lanes in one direction, if someone DIES on the road in their car or is tossed out if it and is DEAD there, as much of the road is closed off as possible. For a few hours.
For eventing, that is the equivalent to me of removing the jump and altering the course.
Maybe don’t cancel, but it’s not just tow the car with the dead person in it off to the side and keep cars moving…
Of course, this is the US, and up north, may be different in other parts of the country.
https://eventingnation.com/fei-eventing-risk-management-steering-group-holds-first-meeting/
My only thought is, where are the actual science backed people who know about risk and safety on this commitee aside from the Canadian?
Riders, trainers, course designers…are nothing but names.
I think this is what “police thyself” looks like. Plausibly knowledgeable cross section of people willing and available to donate some time to this issue.
I don’t think a steering committee usually does the heavy lifting and I could be wrong about the pro bono assumption.
What would the ideal committee look like?
Dr. Stevenson has written that without risk, there is no sport. Is that a disqualifying philosophy for a member of the risk management steering committee?
[QUOTE=jcdill;8891387]
Elsewhere someone said it was at the end of a long gallop, that is true. It’s also true that the gallop is somewhat downhill, and that the fence is just out of a corner. The gallop runs along the “north” side of the property, the fence is along the “west” side just out of the corner. So the horse has a longish, slightly downhill gallop, and a curved line to this fence. There is a large oak tree on the right side, depending on the time of day, it can be partially shading the jump. (Click thru the photos starting at my link above, you will see some horses in dappled shadow, some in sun.)[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your input. As far as Woodside goes, to me it seems that the majority of jumps are ridden from downhill approaches. One of these days I should walk all the courses to get percentages for each level. But the course starts at the top of the hill and finishes at the bottom of the hill; it definitely feels down, down, down as you go around. I’m not saying that this was a factor at all in this horse’s fall, but it does leave less room for error.
Yesterday in the third race at Kempton (in the UK), there was a terrible pile-up of horses. A mid-pack horse went down and took several others with her. Several jockeys had minor injuries; one - the rider of the horse that triggered the spill - is in ICU and it doesn’t sound good.
After a discussion with the jockeys, the stewards cancelled the remaining races. As one report noted:
While there was no suggestion that the track itself was unsafe, the remaining four races were abandoned because, in the words of the stewards, “the overwhelming feeling of the jockeys was that racing should not continue as a mark of respect to those injured”. The horses involved reportedly suffered no serious injuries.
I’m posting this to show the difference in attitude v. eventing.
[QUOTE=msghook;8891366]
Every one of these things is being done now, and has been standard practice for over ten years. Each year we get a bit more sophisticated in gathering information, e.g. we now commonly review video whereas once it was very difficult to obtain.
Every horse that dies at a Licensed Competition is subject to fluid testing for clues to the possibility of foreign substances. The owner of every horse that dies in competition (or as the result of competition) at an Event is encouraged to have a necropsy performed, the Federation and the USEA offset the cost. There is currently a rule change proposal to make this required practice at ALL USEF licensed competitions.
Every rider or equine death at an Eventing (National and FEI) competition is investigated onsite by a prearranged panel, not connected to the competition. They review eyewitness statements, video and anything else that might help identify the cause. At the National level those types of incidents are also reviewed at the Federation level. Earlier, I said for over ten years, in fact, as long as I have been involved with FEI competitions (36 years), that has been the required procedure.
The USEA Design Safety Task Force also reviews fatalities and is engaged in sponsoring studies at the University of Kentucky to help us better understand the nature of fall and the role of obstacle profile and construction.
The USEF and USEA put forward rule changes on a regular, frequently annual basis to try to keep pace with changes in the sport and to address new conditions that have come to our attention. Most if not all of these accident review practices are embedded in the rules if you know where to look for them.
Since 2008 there has been 1 human fatality in the United States as the result of a fall on cross-country. Compare that to the statistics for the preceding 8 years. I do not say that this 1 death is acceptable, but it is an improvement, and improvement is how get as close to zero as is possible.
On a final note, I have seen the video of the horse fatality at Woodside, it was NOT a rotational fall. As the investigation is ongoing and we do not yet have access to the necropsy report there has not been a National level review and I will not disclose anything else.
I appreciate your passion, but am saddened to learn how so much of the work that is done seems to occur unnoticed.
Malcolm[/QUOTE]
It is good to know that there seems to be in place an actual team set up for investigations. Perhaps part of the reason, well maybe most of the reason it goes unnoticed is that their finding, conclusions, and suggestions are either never posted/reported or while there is an investigation, no results are drawn. Question, can the common person access the results of such an investigation, similar to the way anyone can look up NTSB investigations? IF so, then the people responsible have done a poor job of notifying the public. If not, if the records are closed then how can you be saddened by a conversation such as we’ve had when people are not given transparency. When tragedy hits a train/plane/bus or other vehicle, the lives involved are not lessened by others knowing, they may in fact teach.
As to the thought that only one human death in the US has occurred, this conversation has not been only about humans, but I feel predominantly about horse fatalities for they are the silent partner. The human chooses the risk, the horse is basically ordered to participate thus safety should always start first with our equine partners and the humans will certainly benefit. Also, we may have had only one death here, but there have been many across the world in this sport since 2008. The US does not and should not act alone in demanding changes just for our sake, but for the sake of the sport in total. As JER asked, why do we still have flat tables, wide, open oxers when those bear the brunt of accidents.
I am saddened by what seems a lack of transparency in the sport of Eventing when it comes to safety for if a government agency can somehow figure out a way to provide information to the masses, so too can FEI and USEF.
i, personally, would like to know the qualifications of the people investigating incidents for USEF and USEA? If they are simply more eventing names without trained expertise in the applicable areas, like SAFETY, physics, horse physiology (and vision) and all things human, why should we trust any of their findings?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8915768]
i, personally, would like to know the qualifications of the people investigating incidents for USEF and USEA? If they are simply more eventing names without trained expertise in the applicable areas, like SAFETY, physics, horse physiology (and vision) and all things human, why should we trust any of their findings?[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
To add my thoughts a bit. Who decided that false/no groundlines are a good thing?
Did some bit of science come up that said “oh horses jump better with no groundline or a false ground line?”
I think of this particularly with hanging airy jumps in the water with reflections, etc.
As for flat wide tables, wasn’t it the general consensus that these were problematic to say the least?
And now - look! They are everywhere.
I wish eventing would go back to the long format.
[QUOTE=JER;8915673]
Yesterday in the third race at Kempton (in the UK), there was a terrible pile-up of horses. A mid-pack horse went down and took several others with her. Several jockeys had minor injuries; one - the rider of the horse that triggered the spill - is in ICU and it doesn’t sound good.
After a discussion with the jockeys, the stewards cancelled the remaining races. As one report noted:
I’m posting this to show the difference in attitude v. eventing.[/QUOTE]
That’s good to know they cancel racing if there is an accident during the race. I was always under the impression, the races continued if a horse was killed or jockey injured. I guess horse racing isn’t as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.
[QUOTE=Littleluck55;8915901]
That’s good to know they cancel racing if there is an accident during the race. I was always under the impression, the races continued if a horse was killed or jockey injured. I guess horse racing isn’t as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.[/QUOTE]
Most often they do continue if a horse is killed.
[QUOTE=Littleluck55;8915901]
That’s good to know they cancel racing if there is an accident during the race. I was always under the impression, the races continued if a horse was killed or jockey injured. I guess horse racing isn’t as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.[/QUOTE]
They don’t always stop. I watched a horse presumably break its leg at the fair races this past summer. Nothing was stopped - maybe things slowed down slightly because it took them a while to get the horse in a trailer (he couldn’t walk off the track), but they finished the races for the day and no mention was made of it occurring.
I have been to many race meets where a horse is seriously injured or killed. It is not uncommon in the steeplechase/ point -to -point races. In cases where a horse dies on course, they typically put a tent up around the horse and trailer, and then once the horse is put onto the trailer, they just drive off. I have never seen any sort of announcement and frankly, the spectators often do not even know.
In this recent case, I suspect that it was a horrific accident to watch, with numerous horses and jockeys falling. Spectators were likely shaken and traumatized. This is probably why the remaining races were cancelled. The announcement was that it was out of respect for those injured, but I bet that was mostly because of the horrific pile up that all present witnessed.
Compare racing to eventing all you want but this is not a fair comparison. At all.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8916179]
I Spectators were likely shaken and traumatized. This is probably why the remaining races were cancelled. The announcement was that it was out of respect for those injured, but I bet that was mostly because of the horrific pile up that all present witnessed.[/QUOTE]
This is the statement from the clerk of course:
“We gave racing every chance. Having discussed it with jockeys and the stewards, the unanimous decision as a mark of respect for the two lads that have been injured, Jim and Freddy, was that we abandoned racing.”
Feel free to interpret his ‘real’ motivations from that but perhaps also consider that these riders actually care about each other and live with the reality that it could have been any one of them in the air ambulance.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8915768]
i, personally, would like to know the qualifications of the people investigating incidents for USEF and USEA? If they are simply more eventing names without trained expertise in the applicable areas, like SAFETY, physics, horse physiology (and vision) and all things human, why should we trust any of their findings?[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY!!!
ME TOO!!! It would certainly eliminate a lot of people who arent dedicated to training and horse care.
[QUOTE=JER;8915673]Yesterday in the third race at Kempton (in the UK), there was a terrible pile-up of horses. A mid-pack horse went down and took several others with her. Several jockeys had minor injuries; one - the rider of the horse that triggered the spill - is in ICU and it doesn’t sound good.
After a discussion with the jockeys, the stewards cancelled the remaining races. As one report noted:
I’m posting this to show the difference in attitude v. eventing.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for sharing that JER
Just wondering. If JER is pointing to cancelling an event after a bad accident. If that happens, do riders expect to be reimbursed? If it was one accident, maybe due to poor riding and not bad conditions? Did I misunderstand?
