WTF Are We Doing?

[Jealoushe]

@kcmel

Would the optimum time be faster for T/P vs. T? I know XC would run over the training course, but I don’t know if there is or can be a difference in optimum time.

Good question

[NMK]

P/T is run under USEA rules as Training…which is important to know because the refusal in stadium rules difference. That said, the time is at the discretion of organizers. I have seen 450 and 470

[Jealoushe]

Based on Event entries the OT was 5:15, same as the T course. Prelim OT was 5:39. So was the course longer than the T course?

[Chouteau]

The omnibus for this event said 470 for both the P/T & T. I’ve seen 450 for T and 470 for P/T but P/T should always be within T speeds

[Littleluck55]

I was under the impression the P/T division was Prelim dressage and show jumping and Training XC. No difference in course or time.

[Divine_Comedy]

@jumpsnake

I am torn in this situation because I would really like to know what may have happened- not because I want to drag a poor kids name throughthe mud, or because of some weird voyerurism, but because, if a mistake was made, I don’t want to make the same one. Maybe the horse was running off with her, maybe she made a mistake and was intentionally going faster than she should have been, or maybe for whatever reason the horse didn’t see the jump. Even a fence at max height at T it seems most horses can clear from a wonky spot.
Once schooling I made the mistake of approaching a jump when the horse I was on was clearly not listening. I will never do that again.

This!

This, this, this.

This kind of situation sucks so much because when someone (horse or human) dies or is hurt, no one wants to say anything ill. And I get that, I really don’t want to make anyone, particularly connections of the injured or deceased, feel even worse than they already do.

But when something like this happens, the information needs to be shared as to what the ride looked like. If the rider made drastic mistakes, they need to be shared, over and over, so that those mistakes can be learned from.

Right now, the bits and pieces we gossip about (perhaps the truth, perhaps not once we get to third and fourth-hand accounts) are the only bits of the story the public gets. Give us something real! Give us information! Get eyewitness reports (there’s always a minimum of one thanks to jump judges!), get any photos a photographer might have gotten, get videography.

Write a formal summary of the events as they unfolded, enlist a group of qualified professionals to evaluate any photos/videos and provide a supplement to the summary that postulates what factors may have contributed. Make it factual, impartial, and most of all, make it public. This should be done for every horse fall and every rider fall that results in serious injury (hospitalization or concussion).

As a community, we must attempt to learn from the mistakes of others, without vilifying them. It’s understandable to not want to assign blame to a victim, but sometimes the rider’s choices lead to injury or death. Knowing you shouldn’t ride fast isn’t as impactful to some people as viscerally realizing that reckless speed can and does lead to injury or death.

This is important. We need to stop burying our heads in the sand, suck it up, and share information that could save future lives.

[Jealoushe]

@Divine Comedy

This!

This, this, this.

This kind of situation sucks so much because when someone (horse or human) dies or is hurt, no one wants to say anything ill. And I get that, I really don’t want to make anyone, particularly connections of the injured or deceased, feel even worse than they already do.

But when something like this happens, the information needs to be shared as to what the ride looked like. If the rider made drastic mistakes, they need to be shared, over and over, so that those mistakes can be learned from.

Right now, the bits and pieces we gossip about (perhaps the truth, perhaps not once we get to third and fourth-hand accounts) are the only bits of the story the public gets. Give us something real! Give us information! Get eyewitness reports (there’s always a minimum of one thanks to jump judges!), get any photos a photographer might have gotten, get videography.

Write a formal summary of the events as they unfolded, enlist a group of qualified professionals to evaluate any photos/videos and provide a supplement to the summary that postulates what factors may have contributed. Make it factual, impartial, and most of all, make it public. This should be done for every horse fall and every rider fall that results in serious injury (hospitalization or concussion).

As a community, we must attempt to learn from the mistakes of others, without vilifying them. It’s understandable to not want to assign blame to a victim, but sometimes the rider’s choices lead to injury or death. Knowing you shouldn’t ride fast isn’t as impactful to some people as viscerally realizing that reckless speed can and does lead to injury or death.

This is important. We need to stop burying our heads in the sand, suck it up, and share information that could save future lives.

Yes, I can’t like this post enough!

The OHTA in ontario never even made a statement after the horse died at the event here this summer, nor did the OEF. We don’t even know if a report was done etc. Not acceptable.

[lucegoose]

@jumpsnake @Divine Comedy thank you both for getting at what I’ve been thinking/feeling.

The bulk of USEA members top out at Training. It’s become the last “safe” level before the big leap to Prelim, (well, Modified sort of fits in there) so having a rotational fall and fatality is just too close to home, and I think it is important that we get clear on what caused it and if there are ways to prevent it happening in the future.

[kcmel]

@Jealoushe

Yes, I can’t like this post enough!

The OHTA in ontario never even made a statement after the horse died at the event here this summer, nor did the OEF. We don’t even know if a report was done etc. Not acceptable.

Yes, and that was at NOVICE. Not a rotational fall, but I sure would like to know what happened. And the same in the current case. It’s not idle curiosity. Knowledge is power.

[Highflyer]

@Littleluck55

I was under the impression the P/T division was Prelim dressage and show jumping and Training XC. No difference in course or time.

I have seen some that have a few more difficult but still Training-size fences (similar to what you see at the T3D or a more difficult/ Championship Training, as well as the speed at 470. I actually think it’s a really nice in-between step for events that aren’t able to add the Modified division.

[jumpsnake]

@Divine Comedy
can we make a joint letter? I volunteer to write it, we could collect signatures here, and we could send it in to the safety committee.
@Lucegoose
​​​​​​​

[Sticky_Situation]

While I think all horse falls (even those that don’t result in injury) should be analyzed for factors that may have contributed — not to assign blame, but to try to prevent similar incidents in the future — I think this serves as a reminder that there is always an element of danger in equestrian sports, especially when jumping is involved, even when the fences are small. There seems to be a tendency on this board to make a clear division between riders that compete at the upper levels (who are often presented as crazy, adrenaline-addicted kamikazes with disposable horses) and those who don’t compete above Training and are therefore reasonable and safety-conscious. Of course it is true that the danger factor increases as you go up the levels, but anyone who rides a horse over fences is, in doing so, accepting a certain level of risk to their self and their horse. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do everything we can to mitigate the risks, but it is impossible to completely eliminate it.

I once saw a horse have a rotational fall over a 2’ stadium jump in a gymnastic at a Pony Club lesson. Yes, it was truly rotational — the horse’s hindquarters went up and over and it landed on its back. The rider was thrown clear and neither she nor the horse had any serious injuries … but it just goes to show that there is always some degree of danger in jumping, no matter how small and apparently benign the fences are.

[fordtraktor]

It is a matter of physics really… and while I am no physics expert, I expect that as long as there is something large and stable enough to act as a fulcrum and there is enough force coming in to tip the object over it, a rotational fall can occur. It does not take a large fence at all. I would imagine anything knee height or more would do the trick under the right circumstances, but I am sure there are those with actual physics knowledge to correct that impression.

[Blugal]

@fordtraktor

It is a matter of physics really… and while I am no physics expert, I expect that as long as there is something large and stable enough to act as a fulcrum and there is enough force coming in to tip the object over it, a rotational fall can occur. It does not take a large fence at all. I would imagine anything knee height or more would do the trick under the right circumstances, but I am sure there are those with actual physics knowledge to correct that impression.

This was the subject of the study done by the TRL for British Eventing over 10 years ago, which resulted in the introduction of pinned fences. The aim was to prevent the full rotational fall, to prevent rider deaths. (See short overview here.) It was not, if I remember correctly, directly aimed at preventing horse injury or death.

[Jealoushe]

Added Consensus. RIP

http://eventingnation.com/consensus-collapses-dies-at-ocala-winter-i-h-t/

[Laurierace]

@Jealoushe

Added Consensus. RIP

http://eventingnation.com/consensus-collapses-dies-at-ocala-winter-i-h-t/

I don’t think he is a fair inclusion. This could have happened in his stall or in a field, I don’t think “eventing” is to blame.

[RAyers]

@Laurierace

I don’t think he is a fair inclusion. This could have happened in his stall or in a field, I don’t think “eventing” is to blame.

He died between fences 16 and 17 on the prelim course. I guess maybe he was turned out on course during a competition? Maybe the stalls are located on course?

[Laurierace]

The course didn’t kill him, the cardiac event did. It wasn’t a rotational fall or the like. Just my opinion, no one is required to share it.

[Jealoushe]

@Laurierace

I don’t think he is a fair inclusion. This could have happened in his stall or in a field, I don’t think “eventing” is to blame.

This thread is to record deaths.

Until we have answers, we can not say what is “to blame”.

Yes, horses drop dead everywhere. They also drop dead on XC quite often. He was older and running Prelim. We still do not know if the change in course design is emphasizing this. Or new feeds, supplements, etc.

We do know a horse lost its life on course, and that is why these deaths get recorded also.

Interesting to see that there is little talk about this death. OI had to go digging to find it on EN even.

[Jealoushe]

@Laurierace

The course didn’t kill him, the cardiac event did. It wasn’t a rotational fall or the like. Just my opinion, no one is required to share it.

Has a necropsy been reported already?