WTF Are We Doing?

[Marigold]

@Gestalt

How fortunate it was only a possible career ending injury

Just for future readers - as @Jealoushe says, this thread has been pretty carefully cultivated over several years at this point - it’s important to clarify that while sad, this wouldn’t have been a career ending injury but for the horse’s age and history.

Shammie is unfortunately a historically difficult horse to keep sound (as evidenced by some very careful management since WEG in 2014), and now at the age of 16 there just isn’t any point bringing him back from this to the top level when it’s clear his body struggles to keep up with his heart. A strained tendon, no matter how rare the location, can be season-ending but is unlikely to be career ending in most other circumstances.

The good news, of course, is that he should be very able to enjoy a long and comfortable retirement I wish the same could be said for every horse that left the box on Saturday.

[Littleluck55]

@Marigold

Just for future readers - as @Jealoushe says, this thread has been pretty carefully cultivated over several years at this point - it’s important to clarify that while sad, this wouldn’t have been a career ending injury but for the horse’s age and history.

Shammie is unfortunately a historically difficult horse to keep sound (as evidenced by some very careful management since WEG in 2014), and now at the age of 16 there just isn’t any point bringing him back from this to the top level when it’s clear his body struggles to keep up with his heart. A strained tendon, no matter how rare the location, can be season-ending but is unlikely to be career ending in most other circumstances.

The good news, of course, is that he should be very able to enjoy a long and comfortable retirement I wish the same could be said for every horse that left the box on Saturday.

My understanding, he is no longer going to compete at the upper levels. I believe we will see him with a working student or young rider at the lower levels in the future.

[Gestalt]

@Littleluck55 From reading the article that was my impression too. I think if he mends well he will still be ridden.

.“Shamwari may or may not have SOME type of job, it remains to be seen.” Is this better for you @Marigold?

[vineyridge]

I just found this paper on aortic changes in the TB as it matures. Aortic ruptures were the focus of the study design.
[URL=“https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5383194/”]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5383194/

And here is one on the effect of speed changes, unless I’m sadly mistaken.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5844547/

[headbrickwall]

@BWP

Ex 4* horse Sligo Luckyvalier was pts yesterday after a fall in the Bolesworth Eventers Grand Prix (Arena eventing type comp). Not strictly eventing, but also not the first fatality at this type of competition in the uk.

This one, from eyewitness accounts (experienced ones) was very uncomfortable viewing. The whole arena eventing situation needs to be thought about very carefully. Fixed fences in a highly Adrenalin fuelled situation, with the atmosphere being whipped up by commentary. The impression I get is that it was as uncomfortable to view as the arena event at Cardiff was when Mary Kings horse lost his life.

[Jealoushe]

Heres the article to that loss http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/bolesworth-horse-death-sligo-luckyvalier-656443

[DrHB]

@initiate1987

Another thing that I’m thinking about is why these major cardiac events only happen at competitions. Why not during gallop sets at home? I realize that there aren’t jumps involved and it’s not quite as intense as cross country, but still strenuous.

I know of several who have died at home but they were not publicized. I will not name
them here as it was not the wish of the owners to talk about their losses on public forums such as this.

[Gestalt]

@DrHB

I know of several who have died at home but they were not publicized. I will not name
them here as it was not the wish of the owners to talk about their losses on public forums such as this.

I’m not challenging or refuting your comment, but I’m questioning whether these horses were top placed horses. People would notice if 3 or 4 star horses disappeared.

Can you share what level they were?

[ladyj79]

I’m unclear why we are interested in horses dropping dead at home when we are specifically discussing the death toll in competitive eventing…

that said, I don’t really know anyone in 30+ years in sport whose horse just dropped dead at home…which still doesn’t have anything to do with the pretty horrifying cross country death rate.

[Jealoushe]

I think its to counter the argument that eventing is causing it…

I am having a hard time understanding why everyone who knows about these deaths wants to protect those who have lost horses feelings. All that is doing is preventing us from learning more about why this is happening and potentially preventing it in the future. The more information and data we can gather, the better equipped we are.

[Gestalt]

@ladyj79

I’m unclear why we are interested in horses dropping dead at home when we are specifically discussing the death toll in competitive eventing…

that said, I don’t really know anyone in 30+ years in sport whose horse just dropped dead at home…which still doesn’t have anything to do with the pretty horrifying cross country death rate.

I’m interested in the horses that are training hard at home dropping dead. If there are multiple 1 - 4 star horses dying during training that’s a big problem.

[Gestalt]

I’m not saying I don’t care about prelim or other horses, I’m looking at the intense work upper level horses go thru each week.

[ladyj79]

@Jealoushe

I think its to counter the argument that eventing is causing it…

I am having a hard time understanding why everyone who knows about these deaths wants to protect those who have lost horses feelings. All that is doing is preventing us from learning more about why this is happening and potentially preventing it in the future. The more information and data we can gather, the better equipped we are.

Yeah this is the logical fallacy red herring.

there are many examples but this is the equivalent of saying well people who don’t smoke get lung cancer so there’s no point in discussing smoking as a primary cause for lung cancer, and cessation as a preventative.

[ladyj79]

@Gestalt

I’m interested in the horses that are training hard at home dropping dead. If there are multiple 1 - 4 star horses dying during training that’s a big problem.

I’m sure we would all be interested in this, if it is in fact happening (again, I’ve worked with advance level eventers for…twenty five years, and have never heard of this happening), but that does not in anyway mean we can’t or shouldn’t have a conversation specifically addressing deaths in competition.

[Jealoushe]

@ladyj79

Yeah this is the logical fallacy red herring.

there are many examples but this is the equivalent of saying well people who don’t smoke get lung cancer so there’s no point in discussing smoking as a primary cause for lung cancer, and cessation as a preventative.

No need to tell me, not my thoughts. I was just answering the question.

[ladyj79]

@Jealoushe

No need to tell me, not my thoughts. I was just answering the question.

My message wasn’t for you it’s for those who introduce red herrings in an effort to derail honest examination of the current HUGE issues in the sport.

[Gestalt]

@ladyj79

Yeah this is the logical fallacy red herring.

there are many examples but this is the equivalent of saying well people who don’t smoke get lung cancer so there’s no point in discussing smoking as a primary cause for lung cancer, and cessation as a preventative.

Excellent analogy. :yes:

[gardenie]

Not eventing, but http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/andy-kochers-navalo-de-poheton-fatally-injured-at-hickstead

[ladyj79]

@gardenie

Not eventing, but http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/andy-kochers-navalo-de-poheton-fatally-injured-at-hickstead

Yeah and look at the coverage and ceremony this horse gets. As I said several months ago, when a horse dies in show jumping it’s the story of a decade; when a horse dies in eventing it’s a saturday.

it is always a tragedy! It has been normalized in eventing.

[Littleluck55]

@ladyj79

Yeah and look at the coverage and ceremony this horse gets. As I said several months ago, when a horse dies in show jumping it’s the story of a decade; when a horse dies in eventing it’s a saturday.

it is always a tragedy! It has been normalized in eventing.

I guess I missed it. What coverage and ceremony did the horse get? I only saw the couple articles.

And just out of curiosity since I haven’t followed, did they cancel the rest of the show or let it go on like Eventing always does? Or if they did go on, is it more appropriate to only cancel if a rider is killed?

I feel like a show should be cancelled with either a horse or rider death.