Wussy Feet.. what else can I try?

[JB]

That’s so much worse than I was expecting.

Those feet show long-term unbalanced trimming. The flaring is way up the toe, the heels are terribly underrun though thankfully standing up fairly well which is the only thing making this even worse.

I can’t see any way this is such poor hoof genetics that even the best farrier can’t stay on top of decent management.

Meaning - I can’t see any way this isn’t a farrier issue, especially given the 5-ish week schedule. There’s no reason feet should look like this, and especially given a trimming only 4 weeks ago.

There’s every reason this trimming is the sole or major cause of the “wussy” feet.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I think we might have lost OP

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@Meredith_Clark the ELPO has a lot of great videos (done by an ELPO certified instructor) that can help you see the distortion in his feet… if these aren’t addressed you and he will be constantly battling hoof issues, sore/bruised/crumbly feet and possibly remodeling of P3 in the future. I’ve been in the position you’re in… farrier is probably a great guy… but he’s not the right farrier for your horse. We aren’t here to bash anyone… we just want to help
https://www.google.com/search?q=elpo+hoof+mapping+videos&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS892US892&oq=elpo+hoof+mapping+videos&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i333.10064j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[S1969]

@BoyleHeightsKid

I think we might have lost OP

Not necessarily. Getting this kind of feedback is hard, and might take some time to sink in. And, she then has to figure out how to go forward.

OP, this is not a situation where you can bring this to the farrier’s attention so they can fix it. It demonstrates that they don’t know how to fix it, or the horse wouldn’t look like this. This horse needs a new farrier, or your horse will have continuing issues which will probably lead to unsoundness before long.

When was the last time your vet saw this horse? That’s where I would start if you have to address this with the current farrier. “Vet wants me to have [new farrier’s name] take a look at this horse.”

It won’t be easy, especially if the farrier does the other horses at this barn. But these photos are really not good. Your horse will thank you.

[JB]

@BoyleHeightsKid

I think we might have lost OP

Not necessarily - life happens

@BoyleHeightsKid

if these aren’t addressed you and he will be constantly battling hoof issues, sore/bruised/crumbly feet.

and if not already, body issues

@BoyleHeightsKid

I’ve been in the position you’re in… farrier is probably a great guy

Me too - very nice guy. I did have a couple short conversations about long toes, and when the answer continued to be “I can’t shorten his toes without making him sore”, I just stopped having my horse on his list and had a new farrier come in

@S1969

OP, this is not a situation where you can bring this to the farrier’s attention so they can fix it. It demonstrates that they don’t know how to fix it, or the horse wouldn’t look like this.

Nope He either can’t see the distortion and therefore can’t fix it, or doesn’t care and while things might improve short-term because he knows you’re watching, it will get worse again.

[LilRanger]

The same thing happened to me about 10 years ago. I used a great farrier, he was smart, knew all about hooves, had even won awards and competitions! He was also really nice and funny, and had a really nice set up. We’ll call him Showboat. But when my horse began to get sore feet, I asked about why, Showboat said, well you bought a horse with thin soles, let’s put on pads. Ok, great!! What the hell do I know? He’s the professional!
Horse didn’t improve, but I began to notice all the horses had long toes at that barn. A friend who also used Showboat, his horses all had long toes and low heels.
I moved horse to my property (which was plan) , kept using Showboat, as the lady across the road does too to very convenient. Horse began to be not quite right, didn’t want to canter, not his usual forward self and when we crossed the road to get to trails, I could hear his footfalls weren’t even. Showboat didn’t have any ideas, just a training problem. Didn’t really care. Appys are troublesome. Took horse to the vet, radiography showed minor rotation in his feet. Vet very roundabout to suggest new farrier, because it’s a small area and he has to work with Showboat a lot.
Gave Showboat this info- about the rotation not what the vet said!- he said nerve block was all I could do, expect horse to retire soon, so sad. Same had happened to one of the horses at the old barn.

Ended up with a new farrier, not posh, not fancy, but great with feet. Horse ended up being able to go with corrective shoes and was a happy little trail horse again! (Sadly horse is no longer with me, time comes for us all)

Showboat is still working, he continues to do the horses across the road, and now some of the horses at the new barn I take lessons at. His son is his assistant. The horses he works on went from having those upright WB feet to these sloped long toe feet with low heels.

I still feel terrible and wonder if I caused that horse to have navicular, by not doing more or knowing more.

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

100% @JB. I just fired a farrier for that exact reason. Left the PNW with an OTTB with great feet after spending 18 months getting him there. Nice angles, good soul depth, and never an issue with crumbling or cracking feet. After my move across country went with the farrier my trainer uses and after the first cycle started having issues with his shoes coming off, crumbling hoof walls, very flaring walls on both the fronts and backs AND he developed seedy toe. I gently told him to trim back his toe and stand him up more but the farrier didn’t. After looking at every horse that this farrier shoes at my barn and realizing ALL of the horses without corrective shoeing have hoof wall issues, seedy toe and border line elf shoes, I fired him and got someone new.

Now my horse’s feet are starting to look lovely again. No more crumbling, the seedy toe is almost grown out and he isn’t flaring on the fronts like he did with old farrer. Heck, I could even go to a 7-8 week schedule (not recomended but could make it work in a pinch) without worrying about his shoes falling off.

It sucks for @Meredith_Clark to hear over and over again that the professional she trusted and respects is not doing a good job. I’ve been in her shoes and I totally sympothise. I hope she takes some time to really look at this horse’s feet and educate herself on hoof angles. She doesn’t have to be an expert (i’m sure as hell not) but doing this will help her in the long run.

Edit for clarity

[Meredith_Clark]

I have not been lost I promise !

This was the last week before winter break and as a school teacher I’ve been begging a lot of 11 year olds to grant me the Christmas miracle of turning in their math tests

The horse was last seen by a vet 2 weeks ago. She found the abscess and dug it out and also suggested having rim pads put on. The horse’s owner was also present and there was not a discussion about changing the way he is shod.

I have quite a few horses (in my spare time after being a full time teacher I have a small farm and teach about 35 kids how to ride horses ) most of my horses are barefoot except for my show horse who wears fronts and one of my lesson horses who has some navicular changes. The farrier who does the horse in question “came with him” and isn’t the one who does most of the other horses, although he will trim one for me if I need it while he’s there.

[Heinz_57]

I will say (gently!) that I think these feet could be trimmed to be much better, shoes or no. But, it’s not your horse and if you don’t have the latitude to use someone else or make drastic changes without owner input - at least implementing some of the diet changes mentioned could help with the tenderness. Despite not being far along in the cycle, they do look like they’ve been kept chronically long. He could probably have a really nice foot with some diet changes & trim adjustment!

[S1969]

@Meredith_Clark

The farrier who does the horse in question “came with him” and isn’t the one who does most of the other horses, although he will trim one for me if I need it while he’s there.

I would have the other farrier look at this horse and give you their opinion. If your others are sound and their hoof quality pretty good, it is likely they would do a better job on this guy as well.

I’m not a hoof expert (or a graphic artist) but these photos clearly show there needs to be some aggressive action to push this toe back and get the heel under the horse. Hopefully someone can put up a better rendition but the red lines instead of the blue.

[JB]

Obviously you can’t do that in 1 trim, but that’s more or less the goal. The LF is in worse shape than the RF, and it’s possible there’s a bit of genetic high-low here, my guess being the RF is “normal” (because it just doesn’t look like it tends towards being more upright), and the LF tends towards “low”.

[arbeegirl]

Definitely need a different farrier. That would be my first step.

My OTTB was able to transition to barefoot since I bought him last year. He lives in Northeast PA so I know the mud season well. The photos are during mud season after a trim. This was around the one year mark of him being barefoot. (I have nothing against shoes, he’s just getting a break until he starts serious showing in 2021).

At the time of this photo he was getting buckeye EQ8 Gut Health, unlimited grass hay, beet pulp at PM meal, and alfalfa in the evening. Now he eats Ultium and impact hay stretcher plus unlimited grass hay. He was on grass all summer. He doesn’t get any supplements except for a calming supplement (Smartcalm pellets).

During mud season, I do hose off the mud when he comes in to help keep his feet good. He is ridden 5-6 times a week both in the ring and on trails.

[S1969]

@JB

Obviously you can’t do that in 1 trim, but that’s more or less the goal. The LF is in worse shape than the RF, and it’s possible there’s a bit of genetic high-low here, my guess being the RF is “normal” (because it just doesn’t look like it tends towards being more upright), and the LF tends towards “low”.

Thank you! Much better than mine. I wasn’t sure where to drop the back of the hoof, either.

[JB]

@S1969

I wasn’t sure where to drop the back of the hoof, either.

In general, start at the back of the hairline, and more or less follow the same angle as the toe. It’s usually a bit lower angle but not a lot.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I understand that he came to you with the farrier and you do not own the horse, but if he’s with you on a “free” lease then I would assume that you are responsible for all of his care and that would include vet bills. I would definitely discuss with the owner about a new farrier.

The markups that JB and S1969 did give you a general idea how much these feet have been allowed to get out of balance and it’s obvious the current “pro” is not going to help him.

Good luck

[Libby2563]

Ugh, the fact that you don’t own the horse and the owner seems to want you to keep using her farrier makes this a more difficult situation. You can’t directly criticize her farrier without risking making her defensive. Could you ask owner some questions to help lead her to the conclusion that this farrier is not doing the horse any favors? Sending those photos (maybe even the marked up ones) along with some questions could help. For me it’s much easier to see hoof distortions in ground-level photos, so it may surprise her to see how awful they look in photos.

I would also ask your usual farrier to look at this horse and discuss with you what he sees. If he is reluctant to criticize someone else’s work you may have to read between the lines.

I wouldn’t put any stock in the fact that the vet who dug out the abscess didn’t suggest shoeing changes. I’ve seen some top vets ignore or even praise some really crappy shoeing jobs. A lot of them just don’t know, and others don’t want to make waves.

I sympathize with the tough spot you’re in and commend you for suspecting something is off. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here who may be able to help you figure this out, owner willing. Good luck!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Just a quick note… whatever direction you decide to go, I would not let the farrier touch the soles with a knife unless you have xrays… I suspect you have some distal descent. So even though from the side it looks like you can shorten the foot from the bottom I’ll bet money he’s got pretty thin soles.

https://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm#:~:text=Distal%20Descent&text=In%20the%20healthiest%20of%20equine,motion%20of%20the%20coffin%20joint.&text=Neither%20bodes%20well%20for%20the%20horse.