It’s actually just promoting a return to what the rules for training (as they now stand) state. Nothing more, nothing less.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;2717311]
It’s actually just promoting a return to what the rules for training (as they now stand) state. Nothing more, nothing less.[/QUOTE]
there is no return- there are just as many promoting the classical flavor as there are promoting the other- if anything in this country USA- there are many more classical (or somewhat perceived as that) than the other. The other is clearly very poorly documented , understood and there are not more than a hand full that know this method. So really no worry in the homeland…you classical guys- get your shit together and make a couple of competitive horses and you’ll have a lot to talk about…it’s just like in the business world- who comes out with a good product wins!! The old principle holds and it doesn’t really matter how you got there- because the horse will tell you if they are sick and tired of you!!!
Wow, Sabine. I am truly shocked at your statements as they appear to suggest that it doesn’t matter the methods you use as long as the end product wins. I believe it is this very attitude of produce a winner no matter what the cost to the horse is just wrong.
Okay. Doesn’t matter how you get there, just so you win.
What a sad and jaded philosophy. I sure am glad that this hasn’t been my experience.
by rearing and/or running away with you in an awards ceremony?
[QUOTE=Sabine;2717312]
you classical guys- get your shit together and make a couple of competitive horses and you’ll have a lot to talk about…it’s just like in the business world- who comes out with a good product wins!! The old principle holds and it doesn’t really matter how you got there- because the horse will tell you if they are sick and tired of you!!![/QUOTE]
So I read this to say that we need to see more classically-trained dressage horses winning! And I agree. I see thread after thread against some of the contemporary training methods. And “everyone” seems to agree, but then I ask: Where is the video of a horse winning who is classically-trained? Are there really no top level horses out there?
If AVG really is a terrible rider who is abusing her horses, why on earth is she winning???
I personally will not train my horse in the contemporary fashion. I want to learn classical methods.
The proof is in the pudding, and no I don’t think we should be put winning above the horse; that is antithetical to dressage. But we need more prominent standard-bearers to say: Look, a happy horse performing at the top level. There IS another way!
that was exactly what my original concern was, but i was hooted down for suggesting it.
there is nothing to say that because someone isn’t a very public practitioner of rollkur, that they’re a good trainer or rider. and i also think the relationship to xenophon is absurd. read the whole book of his, unabridged sometime, it wasn’t exactly the golden era of horsemanship back then. the lovely photos depicting some roman sitting on a horse saddled with a leopard skin, doing a perfect little levade, are a modern romanticisation of the era. i think the choice of name is meant to appeal to a market segment, a segment that believes that the romans in the time of xenophon were some sort of classical masters. i think that’s rot.
Well, to take this thread in a more positive direction. :winkgrin:
Which of the “up and coming riders” do you think represent the classical priciples?
I love watching Courtney King ride and her work with Idocus looks so harmonious. They really “dance” 
(of course, this is JMVVVVHO, as I am not anywhere near a FEI rider, so probably shouldn’t have an opinion! :lol: )
The issue of what is being rewarded in the show ring is a huge concern. Our FEI judges seem to have eliminated the most fundamental part of the training scale - relaxation - and reward only the most extravagant flinging movements even if performed with rolling eyes and completely tense bodies.
The dressage world seems to be at a critical crossroads. We must determine exactly what is the goal of dressage. Is it a happy, relaxed horse performing intricate movements in harmony with his rider (as the classical group promotes) or is it freakishly exaggerated movement forced out of the horse by whatever method will work best for that goal (and that might, dare I suggest?, appeal more to the less educated audience)?
It certainly appears of late that the FEI judges have, for the most part, made their choice as to the latter.
Xenophon Society
I couldn’t get the English application page to open. Has anyone gotten it, or do you have any suggestions?
THe ‘masses’ should ALREADY be following the guidelines of the FEI, which is rather rigid…the gaits must be pure, the horses balanced, etc. It is a new organization to try to reintroduce why. Anything that we riders do which suppresses the gaits, or the ability to collect goes against the rules of the fei (which is to protect training from the methods de jour), something they have not done since Nigglis leadership.
Yes, training is customized for the advancement of each horse, but it cannot result in uphill balance and proper collection if not developed methodically. Hences the short neck, overly rounded (from the front) horses with no sit in the piaffe and no ability to pirouette about a handkerchief in most competitions. It is the traditional school which allows for the greatest ease of progressivity with mediocre horses.
Certainly this group is not doing it for economic gain. One only had to see the pain on the faces of people like George Wahl in the first GDF to understand how far we have departed the standards.
[QUOTE=slc2;2717858]
that was exactly what my original concern was, but i was hooted down for suggesting it.
there is nothing to say that because someone isn’t a very public practitioner of rollkur, that they’re a good trainer or rider. and i also think the relationship to xenophon is absurd. read the whole book of his, unabridged sometime, it wasn’t exactly the golden era of horsemanship back then. the lovely photos depicting some roman sitting on a horse saddled with a leopard skin, doing a perfect little levade, are a modern romanticisation of the era. i think the choice of name is meant to appeal to a market segment, a segment that believes that the romans in the time of xenophon were some sort of classical masters. i think that’s rot.[/QUOTE]
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Xenophon wasn’t Roman, he was Greek.
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Both Greece and Rome were sadly lacking in photo equipment back in the day.
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If you’re talking about actual equestrian monuments of the stone variety, then yes, they’re a couple thousand years old and not modern “romanticizations.”
What on earth are you trying to say?
[QUOTE=SGray;2717790]
by rearing and/or running away with you in an awards ceremony?[/QUOTE]
I am sure hoping your comment was not meant in a snide way-!
Ride a young GP horse the way she does-…I suppose you would pray to stay on during the test. It’s a very thin line they are dancing on- it’s risky and it’s asking the horse for the best they’ve got. It’s scary like downhill racing…and public award ceremonies are nightmares for horses that are NOT AT ALL BEHIND THE LEG!!! I wish she would break with the idea to have to ride the winning horse in the awards- it’s too risky when the horses are young.
I hope you get it now…it 's really about the ultimate forward. I feel very bad for Anky that she got injured…being a young mom with two little ones- it’s not easy to handle.
[QUOTE=Sonesta;2718041]
The issue of what is being rewarded in the show ring is a huge concern. Our FEI judges seem to have eliminated the most fundamental part of the training scale - relaxation - and reward only the most extravagant flinging movements even if performed with rolling eyes and completely tense bodies.
The dressage world seems to be at a critical crossroads. We must determine exactly what is the goal of dressage. Is it a happy, relaxed horse performing intricate movements in harmony with his rider (as the classical group promotes) or is it freakishly exaggerated movement forced out of the horse by whatever method will work best for that goal (and that might, dare I suggest?, appeal more to the less educated audience)?
It certainly appears of late that the FEI judges have, for the most part, made their choice as to the latter.[/QUOTE]
I totally respect your opinion but I still have to ask you to accept the fact that the judges have been trained and promoted according to our rules and deserve the right to judge the way they see it. They can not really know what exactly goes on in the horse’s daily training- but they can see that the horse performs correctly and willingly and shows ultimate forward reactions. IMO- most often judges get tough when horses do not show that real free flowing - willing and expressive forward…and that’s where those classical horses most often get totally stuck…
again- let’s have some seriously competitive classical horses win at the top…it’s a no-brainer- you show me a good method that produces that- and the dutch method will be gone…just like that…!
Why do we all now have nice flat screens on our computers- because they work great- take less space and are optically attractive- so we threw out all those thick monsters- we used to have on our desks…same with dressage training- it’s called evolution…the natural improvement of a process or a product thru constant reengineering/retesting/rethinking…
Bingo!
Sabine wrote: it’s called evolution
While I enjoy reading your posts, Rollkur hardly has anything to do with evolution. That is painful to read for my geneticist-eyes…
I really hope you don’t mean what you wrote in your last paragraph. There are indeed classically trained horses at the top (may I mention Wensuela Suerte? or the phalanx of Carola Koppelmann’s animals?). And I have seen a TON of young horses, GP and others, that have behaved perfectly well in award ceremonies, really big ones included. You ask us “classical” riders to not jump to conclusions, then please allow us to do the same.
I really don’t understand why people turn this into a “culture clash” when good riding has been practiced for so many years (more than any of us here live on the face of the earth, in fact) that in the end, I have no doubt which way we’ll turn back to. Comparing classical dressage to an outdated antique is pretty short sighted, forgive me
It’s like explaining to a ballet dancer that the classical training from now on will be substituted by hip hop warm-ups. After all, it’s just evolution, right? ;-))
[QUOTE=Maren;2719769]
Sabine wrote: it’s called evolution
While I enjoy reading your posts, Rollkur hardly has anything to do with evolution. That is painful to read for my geneticist-eyes…
I really hope you don’t mean what you wrote in your last paragraph. There are indeed classically trained horses at the top (may I mention Wensuela Suerte? or the phalanx of Carola Koppelmann’s animals?). And I have seen a TON of young horses, GP and others, that have behaved perfectly well in award ceremonies, really big ones included. You ask us “classical” riders to not jump to conclusions, then please allow us to do the same.
I really don’t understand why people turn this into a “culture clash” when good riding has been practiced for so many years (more than any of us here live on the face of the earth, in fact) that in the end, I have no doubt which way we’ll turn back to. Comparing classical dressage to an outdated antique is pretty short sighted, forgive me
It’s like explaining to a ballet dancer that the classical training from now on will be substituted by hip hop warm-ups. After all, it’s just evolution, right? ;-))[/QUOTE]
Maren- I think you’ve taken it a bit far. I am no advocate of rollkur- never was- but I think I am first and foremost a dry-thinking business woman. I spend most of my time working in business with large companies and I guess my thinking is tainted by that.
I practice classical riding myself - very much so- my trainers are a judge and an ex-olympian- very classical indeed- but I see what I see and read and add the results and it computes. The answer is: there are several winning horses out there right now at the top- they are all more or less rollkur trained and they are without doubt- very very strong horses that stand out- and easily beat the rest. Done Deal!
There is no culture clash or me against you- it’s just a very factual observation. Next enter those that say all the judges really suck and see the wrong thing. Well- if we put all this effort into creating our systems of administration and judging - we have to let them do their job. Next- there is sadly NO classically trained horse at the top- Wansuela Suerte was good but not great- and even Hubertus knew that. Now- he trained her perfectly and she shone because of that- so did Brentina- but maybe the really great gaits weren’t there- or maybe the really great gaits didn’t come out because of the training?? who knows??
I wish Xenophon would be more vocal and involved. For example, a statement about Power and Paint issue. Proposal how to troubleshoot warm up arenas. Weight in the forums about those issues and be available to answer questions. I’d like to see them to be more involved. Nice website and good message tho, so it’s a start.
PS: Sabine, I’m so sorry that you are getting labeled as “advocate of rollkur” – for some it’s again back to the “bad guys verses good guys” kindergarten level of comprehension. Hey, just remember that “good guys” can do no harm and “bad guys” can do only evil things. Then world will be a better place and we will have world peace forever and ever
I wish Xenophon would be more vocal and involved
He died .
I watched all the Grand Prix rides Friday and Saturday nights at Devon last week.
Only probably three or four of the horses really “sat” in piaffe, KEPT THE SAME TEMPO in trot, piaffe, and passage and in the transitions (VERY few had good transitions), and continued cantering in the pirouettes. Each horse/rider pair had its strengths and weaknesses.
In order to answer the questions some of you are asking, one would have to watch all the training of a horse you felt was “correct”, to be sure the rider/trainer was really training in the “classical” method. Have you all watched the training of every horse you are praising or reviling? How do you know for sure how the horses are trained?
Some who have been mentioned on this board and elsewhere as “classically trained” do not show “correct” piaffe and transitions.
The best piaffe (“sitting” and even tempo) and transitions at Devon nights were those of Ashley Holzer and Pop Art. The winning horse twirled her tail constantly both nights–what do you all think about that? Must be something about those Danish horses.
There was a beautiful performance of an Intermediare Freestyle by Lauren Sammis and Sagacious. It was the one she did at the Pan Am games, done at Devon during the break so the owner, who couldn’t go to the games, could see it. THAT horse was the best on that night–it was a beautiful performance of an apparently harmonious pair. But PS–I don’t really know where I am in this fight, but I have seen photos posted on the internet of Sagacious apparently being ridden in draw reins. The owner posted them of training just before Gladstone/the Pan Ams. These were not competition photos but training photos.
Certainly the Power and Paint photos were disgusting and appear to evidence an abusive method of training.
Okay. Doesn’t matter how you get there, just so you win.
Isn’t this exactly the attitude Witthiges dsiplayed when she said “whatever it takes to win” or some such garbage that came from her mouth when she was in charge?
