Young horse purchase - Lots of questions!

[Clover5]

@WannabeDQ Thank you for the points! They’re very helpful. Don’t worry, I wouldn’t dream of putting a baby through flexions or lunging! I’d want a vet to assess soundness, not create soundness issues Would it be unreasonable to request the foal be at least somewhat foot broke as well as halter broke? I’d think a 6+ month old foal should have already seen a farrier, but of course I’ve found conflicting opinions on that…

@clanter Just to clarify, the clause about passing the vet check - did you pay the full purchase price, with a stipulation that it be returned and the sale nullified if he failed the vet check when he was ~8 months old? I’m glad to hear he’s been such a success!

@GoodTimes How was the experience keeping the weanling boarded? Was it sight unseen or were you able to check on them in person? I’ve been trying to think this potential purchase through, and I’ve realized that taking a ~7 month old foal from balmy Florida to freezing Canada seems a touch unwise, since they’re so small and don’t have good fat reserves (and I’d rather not stall a baby over the winter!!); so I’m considering boarding down there until the spring thaws things out. The dam has had one other foal. He still lives in Europe. He jumped 1.30 with a pro and is now steadily moving up the levels with his ammy owner; he looks quite nice from the videos I’ve found.

@iJump Thank you! I never thought of the boarder crossing issue but I will definitely keep that top of mind!

@leheath Thank you for the recommendation! They seem to do trips to Florida every month, so they might be a good option!

@cardinale and @kwpn_01 thank you so much for bringing this up! I had no idea it was a problem - how concerning! If we get to vetting I’ll ask about C6 rads.

@sixpoundfarm I’m nowhere near a contract yet! Thank you for mentioning the ulcer meds, that’s a really good idea if we get that far.

[Clover5]

I’ve been trying to think this potential purchase through, and I’ve realized that taking a ~7 month old filly from Florida to Canada in the middle of winter may be a bit unwise and unfair. She’d be pretty small and wouldn’t have a good layer of insulating fat to stay warm, and I’d really rather not keep a baby in a stall. The local weanlings turn into little yaks their first winter, but I’m guessing a Florida baby wouldn’t be nearly so fluffy? Anyone have experience with this?

The other option would be leaving her in FL for 6 months until the weather warms up… although I’m guessing that could be prohibitively expensive, given the location. To be clear, if the former isn’t fair, and the latter isn’t feasible, I’ll be walking away from the purchase. If anyone has experience buying a foal sight unseen and leaving it to grow up before shipping, whether in North America or importing from Europe, I’d love to hear!

I do want to make it clear that this is a horse I’m considering buying; I’m trying to do my research so everyone has the best possible outcome; please understand I’m trying to learn and decide what’s reasonable and fair to do.

[clanter]

@Clover5

@clanter Just to clarify, the clause about passing the vet check - did you pay the full purchase price, with a stipulation that it be returned and the sale nullified if he failed the vet check when he was ~8 months old? I’m glad to hear he’s been such a success!

Yes.

We know the breeder as my daughter had purchased a horse that they breed from another source. Daughter took that horse to several national championships which the breed took notice of, they established a relationship

We did not expect any surprises on this purchase, We paid what they wanted, then boarded him until we could pick him up later that spring.

This breeder is a long term operation that as many do really cares about its reputation in the industry. If for some reason this baby failed a passing vet check they would have refunded the purchase price but it had been prior agreed that the boarding fee would not be refunded.

As many breeders they are finding they are selling most all their new crop fast.

[wsmoak]

@Clover5

If anyone has experience buying a foal sight unseen and leaving it to grow up before shipping, whether in North America or importing from Europe, I’d love to hear!

This is the only way I can do it… I only want to buy one at a time, and I want them to grow up in a herd with friends the same age preferably with a big field to run around in, cared for by knowledgeable breeders.

A couple of years ago I bought a yearling sight unseen and boarded him with a friend until he turned three, which was a couple of months ago. I just brought him home at the end of April.

I wouldn’t do it in another country though, or with people I did not know, without being able to visit at least occasionally. While this plague threw a wrench in the ‘visiting’ idea this past year, I would do it again.

My advice is to pick a breed and get to know people. Follow the breeders online, get an idea of what they are producing. Once it is possible, go to the breed shows and meet people. Go visit, talk to them about what you’re looking for.

I bought a yearling this time. Next time perhaps a weanling, then I might work my way back to a colt option in utero or a custom foal if there is a stallion or cross I am particularly interested in.

I will say that the whole process felt like I was flinging vast sums of money in various directions, without actually having anything to show for it. On paper I owned a horse (and insurance policies) but only now two years later am I able to get to know him.

[Libby2563]

@wsmoak

I will say that the whole process felt like I was flinging vast sums of money in various directions, without actually having anything to show for it. On paper I owned a horse (and insurance policies) but only now two years later am I able to get to know him.

Ha! If you don’t mind me asking, did the yearling purchase price plus two years of board and insurance still add up to less than buying a comparable 3-year-old?

[GoodTimes]

We were familiar with the breeder, they’re about a 3-4 hr drive, and we’ve seen them at shows, etc.
Saying that, we saw her late September when we looked at the group of weanlings. Saw her in October after purchasing. I drove up once in January to make sure she was still alive. And then they shipped her down to us in March.

If you’re serious you could consider asking if they could take a couple videos of a walk through of the barn and paddock, so you can decide if you’re comfortable with the condition of the fencing, etc. And sort out who the vet is, what they do if they can’t reach you, leave a credit card on file, etc.

[Clover5]

Quick update - the owner apparently sold the foal the day after I enquired, and didn’t bother telling me until I sent her a message asking if she’d taken videos yet. Thank you for everyone’s responses though!

[sixpoundfarm]

Sometimes you have to be quick if you see something you like.

[Clover5]

Oh for sure! I didn’t contact her sooner because she specifically asked me to give her ‘a few days’ to get the video.

[Tucker5]

I know the foal sold but this Spring I “purchased” a newborn filly. The breeder’s contract required a deposit with full payment required at weaning. However, the deposit was refundable in case of death or injury. This worked in my favor as less than a week after purchase, the filly was found dead. I really did appreciate the way this breeder handled the sale of their foals and will definitely try again next year.

[Clover5]

All good knowledge for the next time! Thank you for sharing. That kind of contract would be fantastic if I find another foal I’m interested in.

[ElementFarm]

I bought one at 2 weeks old. I paid 25% down, balance before shipping. I was overseas at the time, and sent the weanling to a trainer in AZ to grow up, show a little on the line, etc. He got started at 3yo and started having some soundness/neuro issues. X-rays confirmed significant wobblers and he was PTS that year. That was many years ago, and we now know a lot more about wobblers and KS-predisposition.

Since then, I’ve bred a few of my own foals, and have since determined that’s even harder. After spending tens of thousands with no resulting foals, the stress and frustration of dealing with breeding/repro vets, and then seeing the young ones try to kill themselves or each other in turnout, I’ve since decided to just save my pennies and buy 3+yos…

[iJump]

@ElementFarm

I’ve bred a few of my own foals, and have since determined that’s even harder. After spending tens of thousands with no resulting foals, the stress and frustration of dealing with breeding/repro vets, and then seeing the young ones try to kill themselves or each other in turnout, I’ve since decided to just save my pennies and buy 3+yos…

I’ve always been lucky with getting my mares into foal but keeping them alive in mint or even useable condition is the struggle! I’m glad for the experience but buying 3+ year olds is much more appealing these days.

[2tempe]

I would second this - As I was struggling to figure out the cause of declining performance in my 10 yr old, malformations were raised and I did as much reading as I could. In my gelding’s case, it was not congenital malformation, but it is shocking as to read her studies.

[ClaireBear_NZ]

This is potentially a naive (I know little about young horses) and definitely off topic but would you be able to see the C6-C7 malformation that young? I thought one of the issues with sporthorses and racehorses was the age at which there’s completion of growth in the neck/back

[cardinale]

ClaireBear, I don’t have a clear answer to your question, and this is something to which I’ve given a lot of thought, because of the following experience.

A foal I bought over in Germany and left there to be raised suffered a catastrophic, permanently disabling pasture “accident”–per the farmer, slip-and-fall on slick pasture. She was a yearling by then–IIRC literally about 12 months. The German vet clinic sent radiographs taken not long after the fall–as soon as she could be transported safely to the clinic–which I sent to one of the top practices in the U.S. that routinely reviews radiographs for TB yearlings in the sales. The Dr. there found the more severe form of C6-C7 malformation, with transposition of the “wings” of C6 onto C7. My point is, this could be determined on a yearling, albeit with the more powerful equipment in a clinic (non mobile). I don’t know whether e.g. weanlings could be screened. Also, I don’t think the fall of my filly was an “accident” but rather a consequence of the malformation (possibly intermittent interruption of nerve impulse signals along the spinal cord?).

After that experience, I am loathe to buy more weanlings without a good look at least at C6. Apparently, if C6 is normal, C7 will be also. I don’t know whether it is possible/feasible to get a definitive answer re status of C6-C7 in a weanling. A couple of “regular” vet clinics I spoke with in the US hadn’t even heard of ECVM–this was a couple of years ago, but still…I was surprised. So, you’d have to have a knowledgeable vet willing to follow the protocol, and probably transport the weanling to a clinic. Good luck doing that for a PPE. The original Japanese paper that describes the imaging protocol for viewing C6-C7 used a mobile X-ray machine but it sounded like some super-powerful Japanese model, so perhaps not widely available. Plus, you’d have to sedate the foal…again, good luck getting the seller to go along.

I haven’t kept up with current research on ECVM since that discouraging experience but wonder whether European breed registries are doing any sort of screening, at least of e.g. young stallions before approval (2.5 years old so should be possible). Have high-$$$ TB sales now begun including C6-C7/cervical vertebrae screening in the radiographs taken for pre-sale review? Also, I believe studies were underway to determine whether C6-C7 malformations correlate with performance issues and whether there is a heritable basis. This was a sensitive and controversial topic among stallion owners and big breeders over in Europe. I don’t know whether any further answers have been forthcoming.

[ClaireBear_NZ]

Thanks for that explanation and I’m so sorry to hear about your young horse.

[Donella]

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/evj.13140?af=R&fbclid=IwAR3MWhXKbxyeLKhNaiDaOgQwfV5heJM4MpoJ0tZ50edp87JqpLemx4QZPnY

According to a large study there is no correlation between the “malformation” and clinical issues. That is what the data very clearly says despite all the online social media hysteria. Do some horses have debilitating, horrible neck issues? Yes, sadly. Horses can have a plethora of things go wrong with them. However, many many healthy, clinically normal sport horses have abnormal neck, back etc rads. That is just reality.
Bottom line is, if you cant handle risk, don’t get a horse but most certainly, do not get a foal!!. Happy to have made the decision to breed mostly for myself now and riders can take their unrealistic expectations and have a go at this themselves. And lose money doing it. Good luck! 🤦

Ps, for those of you unaware, there is zero point in xraying a 1.5 month old foal if you are looking for the typical things x-rays are used to find.

[cardinale]

A while after the filly’s injury, I heard incidentally (from someone unconnected to the matter) that the sire was known for producing offspring with “neck problems.” The foal came from a longtime, knowledgeable German breeder who I doubt was aware of the issue.

[Donella]

I’d be happy to see a better study showing that this morphology is directly linked to clinical issues…so far I haven’t seen one? I don’t see a problem with a lack of follow up from a ppe. Horses were actively being used as riding horses that were obviously unaffected by the morphology. Further studies would be great though. Further social media hysterics not so much.