Your own beef-how'd it taste? UPDATE post 139

[TBROCKS]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7703074]
Antibiotics is a class of chemicals, not all are used to treat disease, some are used as supplements, just as any mineral or vitamin are.
Those are used by some producers at certain times because they promote more muscle, less fat and better use of what food the animal eats, by a good 10%.
So, you add that supplement for a certain period to the ration and it benefits all, giving everyone, including the consumer, more, leaner and cheaper beef than if it was not used.

All that has been studied over decades now and is regulated.
All that goes in rations is something that nutritionists balance carefully, has been extensively tested and they are responsible for it’s proper use.[/QUOTE]

And this casual regard for antibiotics is what has led to all the antibiotic resistant microbes we’re dealing with.

[TBROCKS]

[QUOTE=CrazyGuineaPigLady;7703114]
I doubt these 2 cows will go blind on 12 acres of grass and a little corn in the last few weeks of their life. I’m not usually one to say WHO CARES?, but seriously, this doesn’t even register for me. :lol:[/QUOTE]

CPGL…LOL! Kind of my thought too!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=TBROCKS;7703399]
And this casual regard for antibiotics is what has led to all the antibiotic resistant microbes we’re dealing with.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I didn’t explain that sufficiently?
Those “antibiotics” like Rumensin and Bovatec are not used against microbes, so no resistant microbes result from their use.
Just because they belong to a class of chemicals, that doesn’t mean they are all used the same.

In fact, the most resistance today to antibiotics used in humans come from their overuse in humans.

Everyone that uses any antibiotics today, in humans and animal agriculture, is very careful and very regulated.
New regulations keep coming up as the science behind them is expanding.

Just keep in mind that producers are also consumers and happen to live in the same world and using the same resources, including those they produce, that all other consumers.

[Simkie]

@Bluey;7703510

Maybe I didn’t explain that sufficiently?
Those “antibiotics” like Rumensin and Bovatec are not used against microbes, so no resistant microbes result from their use.
Just because they belong to a class of chemicals, that doesn’t mean they are all used the same.

Are you kidding me? Of course they work on microbes. Subtheraputic levels of antibiotics are generally believed to increase feed availability in food animals by killing off the bacteria in the gut. The bacteria in the gut isn’t eating, so the animal has more calories to use to grow.

This is a huge, ridiculous problem leading to antibiotic resistance in people and most other first world countries have banned the use of this practice.

It’s one thing to give a sick animal medicine so it can get better. It’s a whole different, dangerous, ballpark to give food animals antibiotics regularly to make them gain more.

I agree with TBROCKS that I have ZERO desire to eat an animal raised in this manner, or contribute to the industry that thinks this is okay.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7703600]
Are you kidding me? Of course they work on microbes. Subtheraputic levels of antibiotics are generally believed to increase feed availability in food animals by killing off the bacteria in the gut. The bacteria in the gut isn’t eating, so the animal has more calories to use to grow.

This is a huge, ridiculous problem leading to antibiotic resistance in people and most other first world countries have banned the use of this practice.

It’s one thing to give a sick animal medicine so it can get better. It’s a whole different, dangerous, ballpark to give food animals antibiotics regularly to make them gain more.

I agree with TBROCKS that I have ZERO desire to eat an animal raised in this manner, or contribute to the industry that thinks this is okay.[/QUOTE]

This was published in 2009:

http://beef.unl.edu/cattleproduction/antibiotics2009

If you have a sick calf, just as you have sick kids, you treat them, is the humane thing to do.
Those that don’t treat them so they can sell under the “no antibiotics ever” label are not doing right for their cattle.
To treat your sick cattle, you use approved medications and protocols to insure there won’t be residues.
Meat is tested for that continuously when slaughtered.

Just as you or your kids take antibiotics when needed, so do cattle should have them when needed.
Just as for you, antibiotics do their thing and are eliminated after so long from your body and that of cattle.

Nothing objectionable to either practice, when done appropriately.
There is much overuse of antibiotics in human medicine, that is where so much of the resistance comes from in human medicine.

It is the nature of all organisms to develop, eventually, immunity to certain kinds of antibiotics.
All that use those, in humans and animals, know that and follow protocols to guard against it, best that can be done, but it is the nature of the beast that eventually there will be some resistant bacteria.

The FDA determines which antibiotics can be use in animals and how.
Vets go to school to learn how to, when and why to use those, in your dog, horse and cows too.

Some of those antibiotics used on cattle for enhanced performance are not used against bacteria and some that are generally are not used in human medicine.
All this is not one size fits all, lets just ban them all so there is never any resistance created.

[Simkie]

@Bluey;7703633

If you have a sick calf, just as you have sick kids, you treat them, is the humane thing to do.
Those that don’t treat them so they can sell under the “no antibiotics ever” label are not doing right for their cattle.
To treat your sick cattle, you use approved medications and protocols to insure there won’t be residues.
Meat is tested for that continuously when slaughtered.

I am laughing that you’ve linked to an article that advocates “prudent use of anitibiotics.” How in the hell is treating an entire herd with sub therapeutic doses for quick weight gain PRUDENT? Or in line with that article at all?? Sure… “treat the fewest number of animals possible” …by giving medicated feed to the entire herd. I’m sure that’s totally what they mean :rolleyes:

As I stated in my previous post: I don’t have a problem using antibiotics on SICK ANIMALS.

People don’t use monesin on sick animals. They use it on healthy ones to increase the growth rate and the weight gained. As you eluded to in your previous post. And often VETS don’t have anything to do with it. I can go to my local feed store and buy medicated feed. I can go to my local vet supply place and buy cattle antibiotics. No vets involved at all. And the cattlemen do it to increase yields.

Why are you now talking about sick critters when you were previous talking about antibiotics as “supplements” that “don’t kill microbes”?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7703635]
I am laughing that you’ve linked to an article that advocates “prudent use of anitibiotics.” How in the hell is treating an entire herd with sub therapeutic doses for quick weight gain PRUDENT? Or in line with that article at all?? Sure… “treat the fewest number of animals possible” …by giving medicated feed to the entire herd. I’m sure that’s totally what they mean :rolleyes:

As I stated in my previous post: I don’t have a problem using antibiotics on SICK ANIMALS.

People don’t use monesin on sick animals. They use it on healthy ones to increase the growth rate and the weight gained. As you eluded to in your previous post. And often VETS don’t have anything to do with it. I can go to my local feed store and buy medicated feed. I can go to my local vet supply place and buy cattle antibiotics. No vets involved at all. And the cattlemen do it to increase yields.

Why are you now talking about sick critters when you were previous talking about antibiotics as “supplements” that “don’t kill microbes”?[/QUOTE]

I guess I am still not explaining this properly.
Rumensin is only an antibiotic because it is in that class of chemicals, but is not used to kill bacteria in itself.
My point bringing that was that saying all antibiotics are bad because they may cause resistance is not correct, because not all do.

If you really want to be conversant in this topic, you may start by reading this explanatory article carefully:

http://momatthemeatcounter.blogspot.com/2012/07/antibiotics-in-meat-supply-residues-vs.html

She explains this much better than I can.

[Simkie]

Wow, Bluey, you just don’t get it, do you?

You’ve gone from “antibiotics are a supplement and don’t kill microbes”

To “sick animals need antibiotics”

To “not all antibiotics fed to cattle contribute to antibiotic resistance”

Could you pick one and stick to it, please?

Perhaps you don’t understand that some of us just don’t want our food animals to receive a daily dose of antibiotics.

BTW, there’s plenty of resistance to monesin out there. Given that this can be transmitted easily to the human population and genes are easily shared between bacteria, I think this is concerning. You, obviously, do not.

And, just to add, how about the CDC talking about how the antibiotics consumed in this country by food animals–a whopping 80%–are contributing to resistance? http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/09/drug-resistant-infections/#.U-Rnu2Na-si

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7703640]
Wow, Bluey, you just don’t get it, do you?

You’ve gone from “antibiotics are a supplement and don’t kill microbes”

To “sick animals need antibiotics”

To “not all antibiotics fed to cattle contribute to antibiotic resistance”

Could you pick one and stick to it, please?

Perhaps you don’t understand that some of us just don’t want our food animals to receive a daily dose of antibiotics.

BTW, there’s plenty of resistance to monesin out there. Given that this can be transmitted easily to the human population and genes are easily shared between bacteria, I think this is concerning. You, obviously, do not.[/QUOTE]

This is not a one size answer fits all topic.
There are many different angles to it.
“Just say no to antibiotics” is just not even starting to touch this.
Read that blog for more on why.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7703641]
This is not a one size answer fits all topic.
There are many different angles to it.
“Just say no to antibiotics” is just not even starting to touch this.[/QUOTE]

And saying “antibiotics for all!” is the wrong answer, too.

But you seem to have no problem with medicated feed, so there it is.

But hey, in your world, it’s just a supplement and doesn’t kill microbes!!! I wonder how it works then. Or why it’s classed as an antibiotic. Perhaps you should speak with the FDA to fix that egregious error.

Still curious what your stand is, exactly, or how you justify it, since you’ve changed party lines three times in this thread.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7703642]
And saying “antibiotics for all!” is the wrong answer, too.

But you seem to have no problem with medicated feed, so there it is.

But hey, in your world, it’s just a supplement and doesn’t kill microbes!!! I wonder how it works then. Or why it’s classed as an antibiotic. Perhaps you should speak with the FDA to fix that egregious error.

Still curious what your stand is, exactly, or how you justify it, since you’ve changed party lines three times in this thread.[/QUOTE]

If you are referring to Rumensin, no, you don’t have a sick calf and give it a shot of rumensin, it is not that kind of antibiotic.

Ruminants digestion is not that efficient, rumensin is a supplement to enhance how food is digested in a way that more is used, less wasted.

Not all antibiotics are the same or used the same.

[Simkie]

It’s pretty obvious that you just don’t care about the implications of sub therapeutic use of antibiotics in food animals, Bluey, and nothing anyone says or shows you will change your mind. What a shame.

I’ll just link this: http://www.ijaaonline.com/article/S0924-8579(00)00145-X/abstract?cc=y?cc=y which is one of many articles showing that your thinking is flawed.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7703649]
It’s pretty obvious that you just don’t care about the implications of sub therapeutic use of antibiotics in food animals, Bluey, and nothing anyone says or shows you will change your mind. What a shame.

I’ll just link this: http://www.ijaaonline.com/article/S0924-8579(00)00145-X/abstract?cc=y?cc=y[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, you are not understanding that there are different kinds of antibiotics and that some are not used as “sub therapeutic” antibiotics.
Why?
On cattle, some products considered antibiotics are not used in a therapeutic manner, but as supplements, as rumensin and bovatec are.

Anyone can google, but you have to understand what you find to put it in the right context.

[Simkie]

The mind boggles. Yes, I understand that there are different types of antibiotics used for different purposes. The issue at hand is the sub therapeutics, which you say “don’t kill microbes.”

This conversation is going no where, and you simply don’t care that there might be an issue. I’m done.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7703653]
The mind boggles. Yes, I understand that there are different types of antibiotics used for different purposes. The issue at hand is the sub therapeutics, which you say “don’t kill microbes.”

This conversation is going no where, and you simply don’t care that there might be an issue. I’m done.[/QUOTE]

Let me try to explain the important difference you seem to be missing here this way:

There are regulations for what produce can be called organic or natural.

You can not use antibiotics with those programs, but you can use rumensin with some of those, because it is a supplement that happens to be in the antibiotic class, but not a therapeutic antibiotic, the kind that is meant in these discussions:

http://www.asi.k-state.edu/doc/beef-tips/bt-nov-06.pdf

As your dig about how much I care or not, that again just shows us that you don’t know about these topics.
That thought should not even have enter your mind, as antibiotic use has always been extremely important in animal husbandry.
Every producer I know has taken advanced education college courses on antibiotics and their uses and record keeping and withdrawal times and gone back to learn more as advances in science have come along, for decades now.
Antibiotic use is regulated and extensively tested for residues and any misuse is severely punished.
I don’t think you will find anyone that you can say “they don’t care” and was in business very long.

[TBROCKS]

Bluey: it is ABUNDANTLY clear that use of antibiotics in cows and other food-producing animals does contribute to increased microbial resistance. Where in the world do you think all these resistant strains of e coli and samonella orignated from? Cows, pigs and poultry are fed these antibiotics so they grow in environments where optimal growth wouldn’t naturally occur- small and crowded living conditions. There is NO argument to this. Now, if you’re going to try to defend the use of antibiotics at least spare me the “silly people, they’re CLASSED as antibiotics but they’re not being USED as antibiotics - they’re for weight gain and the microbes know this!” argument. You are only making yourself look uninformed here.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=TBROCKS;7703773]
Bluey: it is ABUNDANTLY clear that use of antibiotics in cows and other food-producing animals does contribute to increased microbial resistance. Where in the world do you think all these resistant strains of e coli and samonella orignated from? Cows, pigs and poultry are fed these antibiotics so they grow in environments where optimal growth wouldn’t naturally occur- small and crowded living conditions. There is NO argument to this. Now, if you’re going to try to defend the use of antibiotics at least spare me the “silly people, they’re CLASSED as antibiotics but they’re not being USED as antibiotics - they’re for weight gain and the microbes know this!” argument. You are only making yourself look uninformed here.[/QUOTE]

Didn’t you read the links I have posted, the one from that blogger about antibiotic use and resistance?

Try putting antibiotics in the right perspective, understand that resistance happens naturally also without any use of antibiotics commercially, that is a given, no one is “denying” that.

What I am trying to explain is, first, not all antibiotics are the same, we were talking about ionophores like rumensin AND that antibiotics have decades of research behind them and are very much regulated to minimize their use and so resistances, that are going to happen anyway, eventually.
ALL antibiotic uses, in human and animal husbandry, have protocols for their use, based on studies and the science behind them and no, not all are to be considered the same product at all.

Here is more:

http://hurdhealth.com/2013/08/14/its-all-antibiotic-free-baby/

Antibiotic use is being used by those anti animal agriculture to fearmonger, but if you dig a bit more, may understand that so much of the objections are just that.
You do take an antibiotic if you are sick and that is what you need, I assume and don’t think you are being poisoned and understand that after a short time that antibiotic will be out of your system?
The same for animals, that is what regulations and protocols are for.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=TBROCKS;7703399]
And this casual regard for antibiotics is what has led to all the antibiotic resistant microbes we’re dealing with.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. That is very dangerous thinking. Unfortunately, the ag lobby has such a strong influence on the FDA and USDA that a ban on improper use of antibiotics is unlikely anytime in the near future. It’s coming though, it’s just a matter of time.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7703789]
Exactly. That is very dangerous thinking. Unfortunately, the ag lobby has such a strong influence on the FDA and USDA that a ban on improper use of antibiotics is unlikely anytime in the near future. It’s coming though, it’s just a matter of time.[/QUOTE]

“Improper use”?

OF COURSE that is not acceptable, you will be fined and go to jail if you misuse antibiotics.

Over decades studies have been conducted to determine proper use, regulations and protocols for use determined and inspections to be sure all follow them.

Read the links provided to understand this topic better.

[TBROCKS]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7703786]
.
You do take an antibiotic if you are sick and that is what you need, I assume and don’t think you are being poisoned and understand that after a short time that antibiotic will be out of your system?
The same for animals, that is what regulations and protocols are for.[/QUOTE]

You really don’t need to preach the use and effects of antibiotics to me. I’m legal to prescribe them. And I prescribe them judiciously, for conditions that warrant them. Because as me and all my colleagues are aware, overuse contributes to microbe resistance.