I have a lovely 15hh chestnut mare. I am a 36yo adult amateur. Is there a hunter division I could potentially be successful in? I’ve heard mention of a Small Hunter division, but I’m not seeing it on any show bills here in zone 8. What are my alternatives? What are the USHJA Hunter divisions? She has the scope to do the 3’6" Amateur Owner’s, but even with a good trip can a 15hh horse really hang in that division? Is the 36 and older group very competitive? Do I just need to find a kid to show my horse in the Small Juniors and buy something bigger? Is this too many questions?
Very likely! But not having seen you ride or your horse, it could be almost any division that’s not restricted to juniors. There are so many more factors than horse size.
I think small hunters is not a rated division and not offered at all shows/zones. If you’re aiming for A/Os, it’s not a division I would do, or only as a warm up (but you could do low or performance or any classes for that too).
She has the scope to do the 3’6" Amateur Owner’s, but even with a good trip can a 15hh horse really hang in that division?
Yes. Stride and jump and rider accuracy matters more than height of horse. You will get lower scores if it looks like she’s struggling to get down the lines, but that would also happen with a large short-strided horse.
Is the 36 and older group very competitive?
Depends where you are and on the show. If it doesn’t fill and they combine divisions (or if you do the classic), you could also be competing against the younger A/Os (or JRs).
Do I just need to find a kid to show my horse in the Small Juniors and buy something bigger?
Not necessarily. I mean, you can certainly sell the horse if you like. You could also try the A/Os and see if you’re competitive. There is also a good chance if the horse is not competitive in A/Os, she won’t be competitive in the JRs either. Watch some of those small juniors go; at big/top shows, it’s not a division for the less athletic horse. There are also the Low A/O or Jr to consider if she doesn’t have the stride for 3’6.
Is this too many questions?
Nope.
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Are jumper classes a possibility for you two? Just a thought… What are your goals in competition? Are you in it to win it and go all the way to the top, or “get out there and see how we do, enjoy ourselves and get some unbiased eyes let us know how we’re doing?”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I think there’s a huge and unnecessary bias in the English disciplines against “small” horses. I was astonished that the National Dressage Pony Cup’s “small horse” division goes up to 16 hands! When did 16 hands become “small”? This has a huge impact on the market value of horses that are otherwise very high quality, and leaves a whole lot of people who want to be competitive in a bind. They like to ride a “small” horse generally, or have found themselves with a “small” horse that they get along with well, but are faced with having to find a larger horse if they want a better guarantee of success because that’s what’s winning these days. The only way to fix it, as I see it, is to have more serious competitors looking at and buying quality “small” horses, showing them, and winning. Seldom Seen and Theodore O’Connor (sorry, I don’t know any small hunters by name that have been successful against bigger horses) were not necessarily “flukes;” if more people looked for and bred for that kind of quality in that size, sold those horses to serious competitors, and they were brought along seriously, we would see a lot more “small” horses winning, and a lot more breeders producing quality “small” horses.
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What is your horses stride? If she can get down the lines in the right amount of strides without galloping it doesn’t matter if she is 15 hands or 18. A big name rider won a big class not too long ago on a 15.2 horse… I don’t remember who it was though. They are out there in hunter land they just aren’t advertised very much.
Jumpers is also a really fun way to go if you haven’t tried it.
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Weren’t those two like 14.1 or 14.2? That would have made them a large pony, by h/j rules/standards. Some large ponies are very very fancy and athletic and expensive too, and probably could jump around 3’6 hunter course easily, but no, they do not compete against horses (or small/med ponies, for that matter, except maybe in pony derby? but the fence height and lines are adjusted for different pony sizes) in the hunters.
If you have a small (horse) hunter that you want to prove is as good as the large ones, you could compete them in the open divisions or derbies. I don’t know if ponies are eligible or if adults are allowed to ride ponies in open/amateur divisions.
OP: Very long video of small junior hunters (some of them are pushing 16hh, and some stick a little smaller. Probably not that many or any right at 15hh or the dreaded 14.3). There’s probably video of A/Os too on the youtubes, but they don’t split by size. If your horse goes around similar to those horses, you’ll be fine in the hunters. The key thing is really more stride/scope than height of horse.
Probably won’t do jumpers on this horse. She’s a nice enough mover that I’ll go dressage or CT if the hunters don’t work out. But I have a yearling that I’ll eventually need to teach to jump and since I haven’t been o/f consistently in over a decade I thought I better put on my big girl britches and ride some courses.
Not sure about her specific stride length, but that seems like it’s really going to be the deciding factor so I better find out. We jumped around 2’6"ish today on the course that lives in the jumping ring at the boarding barn down the street. She walked the lines on that but heaven knows how they’re set. She is pretty slow footed (there has to be a more eloquent way to say that) and her stride is adjustable.
As far as goals I do want to have fun, but I don’t want to spend a pile of money trying to show in a division where we can’t pin. I will eventually sell her, and I want these show miles to amount to something. I guess I also need to get some pics of me on her and make sure I don’t look huge. I’m 5’6"/140 so not a giant, but suitability is something to consider.
What about these Hunter Derby’s I’m hearing about? They were just starting to be a thing when I last worked in the industry, but I was at a jumper barn then so not plugged into what they entail.
@retiredhorse Thanks for posting the video. I forgot how FAT they like the hunters. I better start feeding her now!
If you’re looking to sell her and she maybe doesn’t have the stride for 3’6, the 3’ hunters (children’s or AA’s) can also be a profitable market, if she’s easy enough and can handle riding mistakes.
A slow stride that covers the ground and is forward/not behind the leg is fine. Preferred, even, over a horse that is quick. Adjustable is good!
Derbies are special hunter classes, over two rounds, with prize money! May be less restrictive about rider eligibility or open to all – so not only would you be competing against larger horses, you may also compete against pros and juniors. The course may be set in a bigger ring (some shows use the Grand Prix ring, some combine 2 rings, some have you jump out of the main ring into the (empty) schooling area and back in; generally, the more money, the bigger the ring and the course), with a more complicated/fun/spooky/forward course than the typical 8-jump-inside/outside/diagonal line course. May have natural-ish obstacles, like logs or hay bales or giant brushes. No water jumps. Could also be a night class.
Top 12 come back for a second handy round: you will see tighter turns, trot jump, maybe a bank, perhaps something approaching a hand gallop to a single oxer, higher jump options. Extra points are awarded for handiness and taking the higher jump options – some national/local derbies are 3’ or 3’3 and may be restricted to jr/am (or not. it will specify in the prize list), with less prize money; bigger “international” derbies are set at 3’6, with the higher option at/over 4’, prize money is usually at least 10K, I think.
There will still be related lines and combinations, so the horse still needs enough stride for that. Derby horses have to be on the bolder, braver, handier/scopier side. You may also see people entering their equitation horses or jumpers, even GP jumpers, if the money is good enough and the horse is huntery enough – judges have rewarded horse’s brilliance over the jumps, with somewhat less focus on movement (they have to have enough stride to make it look easy, but a little knee or hock action is either not penalized or a spectacular jumping style more than makes up for it – horse doesn’t have to be hack winner).
Oh, yeah. I did not have my hunters that fat, but that is the look a lot of people like. Personally, I think if the horse is shiny and you can’t see the ribs or hip bones (and its not modeling), you probably don’t need it to be that fat.
ETA: if you’re unsure of your horse’s suitability in the A/O hunters, or hunters in general, I recommend asking a good hunter trainer to tell you what they think (pay for a lesson or clinic or something). Depending on what price range you would be looking to sell at, and mare’s fanciness/ability, some regions have a solid non-rated or B-circuit where mare might shine (some of these horses go for 50K and over, but perhaps won’t hit the 100, 000s range).
Looks like the hunters went and got fun! This gives me a lot to chew on. I still need to put a change on her, so it’ll be a couple of months before we’re ready to really hit the show ring but I’ll start measuring lines. Her flat work was garbage when I started riding her but has gotten a world better in the last month. The two times I’ve jumped her have gone surprisingly smoothly. And most of all I just love her little self! I want to make sure she has a solid career path to go through life on. Hope this is it!
Point wasn’t the specific height of those two horses. The point is that there exist “small” equines that ARE competitive at the highest level of their sport. Pretend for a moment that those two were 14.3 if it makes it easier on your imagination. 14.3 (or even 14.2 and a fraction, if I recall correctly) WOULD be allowed under the rules in the A/O ring competing against horses, yes? There exist 14.3 equines that were bred to be very, very fancy and athletic and expensive large ponies and just happened to grow that extra inch or so? Their athleticism and fanciness didn’t change one whit with the extra inch, but I lay odds their expensiveness took a hit. There’s no real reason those horses shouldn’t be marketable and successful in the show ring, but there’s a vicious cycle that serious competitors won’t buy them because that’s not what’s winning in the ring, and they aren’t getting pinned in the ring because serious competitors aren’t buying them and campaigning them.
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Yes!
15 hands is the BEST size!
Little mare is 15 hands. Original plan was to do the hunters, but she’s a touch too hot (and wouldn’t hack) so we have switched to the jumpers which she is VERY successful in. Her trot is not huge, but she has a canter stride that gets us very comfortably down the lines.
While size is desired, if she moves well, can get down the lines, and jump the jumps, she can be successful. There is a small hunter division now too!
It’s the strides, not the height in the rated Hunters and there will be combinations at 3’ and up, sometimes triples involving a 1 or 2 stride. You can fake it at 2’6", not in a 1x2x3 or even 2x2x3 with bigger, wider fences. Spread fences alone can trip up those a little short in the step. 3’6" oxer is going to be between 3’6" and 3’9" wide and stuffed with fill creating a bigger effort with more airtime. It should look effortless, no stretching to get across and be in perfect rhythm with the canter or you won’t pin well…and if there’s another big oxer 3 strides after landing it will expose a step shortage. Maybe get a stop.
Unrated it really doesn’t make much difference as those courses are " softer" in height, width and stride and if there are combinations, they tend to be far friendlier.
My long time AA rated 3’ Hunter was 15.3 on tip toes. Got around fine at most shows but was a nickel short against the best over an honest course. Didn’t have to add but had to find every fence perfectly and stretch a little over heavily decorated walls and roll tops, sometimes work too hard getting us out of big, forward combinations.
Enjoy your Horse, you never have to spend 1k+ a week at competitive rateds to have a nice Hunter. There’s alll sorts of lower level Derbies out there these day that aren’t gosh awful expensive with huge fences and tricky combinations. Set a reasonable goal (lead change for example) and when you reach that, set another ( fully adjustable canter ? ) see where you are at.
There is a big difference in stride length when you get to the 3’6 rated divisions. It sounds like with her experience you’d want to start in the smaller ushja divisions anyway to get her around. If those lines are comfortable, then she will probably do fine on the 3’ market, which can be quite a good market, especially if you look to match her with a more petite adult amateur rider. If I wanted to be really competitive in that division, i’d prefer a horse with more scope than one of the many who are doing the 3’ because that’s really where they top out on ability. You will still have some combinations at that height.
And then the national derbies may be something to consider if she is doing well at the 3’ rated. Most of the high option fences are set on unrelated distances.
For sure! Their athleticism didn’t change, but what is expected of them has. That’s why there’s a price drop. If, however, they can do the small juniors, if they can walk the lines at 3’6 and take a joke, if they can pack someone around the AA/CH, their price will increase again. A steady, safe, competitive packer is worth its weight in gold, but there’s also no big finals for AA/CH or prize money, so that may affect price also.
Also, if they’ve only competed in divisions that have no height restriction, you may not know how big or small they really are unless you’re standing next to them. Some BNTs love the smaller horses, but they don’t make a big deal about their horses’ heights – in the hunters, the highest most riders, especially non-pros, jump is 3’6… it’s not like you’re sitting on a small horse staring at a jump that’s bigger than you are, so why would people focus on horse height unless they were selling small junior or ponies.
If you (general) want to have a string of 14.3hh horses and campaign them in the A/Os, no one is going to stop you (unless you’re ineligible for amateur status). You could replace “small” with “tb or other non-wb breed” and it’s the same argument other people make. But do they actually, objectively jump and move well, and make the overall course look smooth and easy, is the real question. A lot of hunter people also are not into breeding or starting horses, so they have to have proven themselves a bit already or be able to show what they’re capable of (jump, movement, stride length, temperament – not necessarily in that order).
There’s no real reason those horses shouldn’t be marketable and successful in the show ring, but there’s a vicious cycle that serious competitors won’t buy them because that’s not what’s winning in the ring, and they aren’t getting pinned in the ring because serious competitors aren’t buying them and campaigning them.
When I started showing like 20 years ago, there was an unfortunate trend in the hunters for really big, super slooooow and expressionless hunters. Crawling in the lines, even horses with a 4-beat canter were winning. I’m glad hunters are rewarding more pace and brilliance and allowing some expression now. But they still don’t reward horses flying down the lines. The issue still is stride length.
I had a 15hh horse that was difficult to market. Don’t know exact height as we did not measure him, but he was small. He could jump 4’-4’6 amazingly, not spooky, did jumpers and equitation, definitely not a hack winner. The problem was his stride was juuuuust long enough, when he was traveling forward and under himself properly, but he did not have that little bit of extra step when you got into trouble (obviously a bigger problem at 4’ than 3’, but even at 3’6, it was something you had to think about). If you chipped or were a little slow into a line? You were either running out, taking of flyer or adding a stride – that’s a huge issue in the hunters and eq, and even some jumpers as it doesn’t set you up for the next jump properly. If you were forward and accurate, he did well. so, hard to sell because it was hard for him to bail out a less than perfectly accurate rider. Not scopey enough to be GP/Young Rider contender or pro-only ride.
Have also tried many other small horses where stride was questionable. Would have bought them and campaigned them if that wasn’t the case; really typey and beautiful jump/movement, but stride wasn’t there. Or there were issues with PPE. Or owner changed mind about selling. Large horses with obvious short-stride we never even looked at. Hunters are like 80% related lines. You stack the odds in your favor if the horse has an excess of stride, that is adjustable and doesn’t look like it’s struggling to get down the lines. Has been easier to teach a horse to compress stride than to try to manufacture a longer step that’s not reliably there.
Good point! I don’t want to give the impression that derbies are always really expensive or that you have to be at the top level, spending thousands a week, to compete in them. It depends on OP’s goals and price range (that you’re willing to spend and want to sell at).
Another thing you can try: go to a schooling show when mare is ready or jumping around comfortably. The lines may not be set as forward as they are at rated shows, but it should give you an idea of what you have. If the changes aren’t solid yet, do simple ones. i don’t know if this matters to you, but a lot of h/j trainers start their horses over fences, including going down lines, before teaching changes.
One thing that you didn’t mention and wasn’t asked already. But things to consider if this is a re-sale horse.
Is it a WB (registered)
is she big bodied
There is sadly a preference for WBs in hunterland, and a lovely, scopey TB or appendix won’t bring the same money that an equally talented branded WB will.
Also, while 16hh isn’t “small” in my book, a lot depends on their conformation. I have a 15.2 mare who I showed very successfully in the AOs. She had a huge stride, great jump, but also had a enough barrel to take up a longer leg. I ended up leasing her a tall-ish jr to do in the 3’ divisions, and the girl didn’t look big on her. But a weedy/narrow conformation type will make average-to-tall riders look too big, and limit marketability.
I love chestnut mares but there is some prejudice out there. If the mare is an off-breed, or a narrow type, you may be looking at a lower price point for her, even if she has the necessary step and jump to be successful. So knowing those factors are good things to consider before spending a ton of money to show her in rated shows. You may do better giving her good mileage locally and getting her broke enough for a kid. If she has the ‘look’ to go with the stride and jump, she may still be very competitive at the 3’6 division at the A and AA level. Or she may end up a sporty and competitive jumper for someone. There are way too many variables other than 15hh.
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At 15hh with no change yet, I wouldn’t even worry about whether you can get her to the 3’6" A/O’s – there would be a lot of miles and show $$$ put into getting to that point, and it is not necessary to get that far to sell her, if that’s the goal. And if you just want to keep her for yourself and show, then just start bringing her up the levels (you’ll find divisions available from 2’ on up in 3" increments, so plenty of options) and see where she maxes out. But you definitely need to figure out the step and how the lines you’ve been jumping are set. If she has the step to make the numbers in the 2’6" or 3’ divisions, and can take a joke, there will be a market for her with a petite adult or kid coming off a pony. Smaller horses can take longer to sell, as some buyers only want the bigger ones even if they would fit a smaller one, but you can find a match if you have proven that she can do the job.
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She is definitely an ‘off breed’ as in I have no idea what she is. Doesn’t look like much if any QH in there. Fancy mover, flat knees, really points her toe. Maybe arab or welsh because she has the prettiest little Thelwell head, really free shoulder. She’ll hack well unless height is an issue there? Strawberry roan, flaxen mane and tail, chrome to her knees all round and a blaze. If she’d measure a large pony she’d be a gold mine but she’s exactly 15hh barefoot and just trimmed. I’m not trying to get 6 figures out of her. I just want to add enough value that she will be taken care of.
Won’t be simple enough for a kid for a while I don’t think, but she’s surprised me how much she chills out being in a program. I’ll sell her eventually, but I’d like to keep her and show her for a couple of years for my pleasure. I know there are no guarantees and we’re swimming up stream not being a warmblood. That’s why I’m asking. If there’s legit no place in hunterland for the hony, then I’ll just go event her. Might do that anyway. But she seems to have talent and a hunterey style and sometimes it’s better to take the horse where it wants to go instead of trying to fit it into my preferences.
