2 mares in paddock have been fine for 3 months, now they're fighting and the vet is coming again!

[Razzle]

We got 2 new mares this spring to add to our paddock with our two geldings. Expected turmoil ensued as we slowly introduced the new horses but things settled down fairly quickly with only minor cuts and scrapes for everyone.

Now, 3 months later the lead mare (#2 in the pecking order) is attacking the other mare (#3 in the pecking order). It’s happened twice in a week now and the vet is headed out this afternoon because the 4am altercation this morning caused some significant damage to #3. I saw the first altercation - late afternoon - #3 was standing against a big hill with her butt towards #2 (we live in the mountains) - I didn’t see how it started but ran toward the paddock screaming as #2 was repeatedly kicking #3 in the butt with both back hooves flying. #3 didn’t seem to have the sense to leave (she had an out on one side).

4am altercation today - I heard, it woke us up. Seems that both mares were in one of the lean to’s together (not uncommon). #2 kicked the hell out of #3, but #3 didn’t have the sense to leave the lean to until I came in and they both walked out.

Why now? Pecking order stabilized fairly quickly 3 months ago. This is not a shortage of food or water and not happening at feeding time. The mares ride well together and trailer together. Everyone is getting maybe a bit less attention over the past couple weeks as we’re going back to school, etc - but it’s not a significant change.

The paddock is about an acre, so they are not too crowded. But as I mentioned we are in the mountains, so it’s not a paddock we could easily divide up to separate them permanently. I’d hate to think that we need to sell one of them but this level of violence/injury cannot continue.

Any thoughts?

[ayrabz]

mares (especially only two and only with two other geldings) are the reason people look for specific boarding situations that separate mares and geldings. cycling does not happen on our schedules. but it does continually happen. You’ll have to decide if you need to separate them or deal with aggression off and on. Sorry, JMHO

[Razzle]

Trying to think through WHY she would be attacking now, and not earlier this summer. She’s been cycling all summer but this is the first time she’s been so aggressive - perhaps because we’re coming towards fall? I’ve had mares on and off my whole life but have not had one behave like this before…

[Simkie]

If you’ve pegged the pecking order right, guessing that #3 is looking to move up, making a bit of a move, and #2 is telling her–harshly–that it’s not going to happen. It might be happening now vs earlier because #3 is just now comfortable enough to start trying to make a claim.

Some mares are better at diplomacy than others. I have one who keeps everyone in line with a look. The one below her, who has stepped in to be head honcho when #1 mare is not out, ALWAYS over does it. It sounds like your boss mare might be an overdo-er, and the other mare might be making a play for that boss mare spot, not really willing to hear no.

You can wait it out and hope nothing real serious happens, or you can separate.

[ayrabz]

Razzle—I totally understand you’re trying to figure out why. There could be many things you could look into. Scoping for ulcers? Seeing if she has a ovarian issue? ALL of this would take a lot of vetting costs. And you may still find out, in certain cycles that you would still have a problem if no separation was set up. That was why I made my input kinda simple. separate and see if it stops. If it doesn’t? and its more of an issue…then at least you’ve established that fencing/separate possibility ESPECIALLY IF there is healing and vetting to be had. Best of luck…

[Razzle]

So we’ve kept them separated (#2 mare in the round pen) for a week now - only out together when I am there to watch closely. Mare #3 is healing nicely so I left them out all together during the day with the lean-to’s blocked off so no one could get trapped in a corner. Seemed to go well. So left them all out overnight with lean-to’s closed - first night was fine, last night I’m running around the paddock at midnight like a crazy person trying to break up the fight. Mare #3 has new kicks and cuts but nothing requiring a vet call this time. I talked with the guy I bought #2 mare from, he’s a puzzled as I. She had been in many different paddock and pasture scenarios there with lots of different groups of horses with nothing like this. She tended to be in the middle of the pack in those groups. Perhaps because she’s #2 now she’s wanting to ensure her position and willing to attack viciously to keep it? I don’t see #3 challenging her, but I could be missing something on occasion obviously.

One of the big issues is that we do not have a way to keep them separated for long. Once it starts snowing here (we are at 9,000 feet elevation and we have about 1 1/2 months until the snows come) she will not be able to live in the round pen - no shelter and no power to keep her water from freezing.

As far as medical issues - she hasn’t had any in the past. She has no lameness, no tenderness, no cuts - heart rate and temperature normal, vet can’t find anything wrong with her. Of course, that does not mean there is not something we cannot detect yet, but nothing in her current state or history leads us to believe she is ill.

Anyone have any luck with a kick chain? I’ve been reading about them but don’t know anyone who’s used one.

[4horses]

I would probably think of selling one of them. Horses can be like that. My friend’s gelding just got kicked in the fetlock by his herdmate. Apparently they decided to fight over who is boss. I’m not sure I would be willing to risk further injury.
”‹”‹”‹

[Simkie]

@Razzle

Anyone have any luck with a kick chain? I’ve been reading about them but don’t know anyone who’s used one.

Often when you remove the ability for an animal to express themselves in one way, they switch to another. Add kick chains, I’d expect a whole lot of teeth to follow.

These horses are telling you something. Best to listen, rather than try to take away the voice.

[skydy]

It really does seem that since you cannot separate them, you will need to sell or “trade” one of them. If you do that now you may save yourself a lot of vet bills, including a possible euthanization in the middle of winter.

Do you need two mares or would new gelding work for you?

[TheHunterKid90]

Towards the end of summer, a mares cycle will be quicker and “harder.” I notice my mares are more marish and tease harder and act a bit more rude when cycling toward the end of the season as opposed to the beginning of the year when they tease slower.
I would be tempted to try progesterone with this mare and see if there’s a difference in her behavior.

[Bluey]

Our vets have commented that so much of their vet work is because humans insist on keeping horses together in relatively small spaces.

Horses get along so long and eventually someone gets ugly, is horse nature.
In the wild, the one beaten on moves on to find greener pastures and maybe another horse to be with that won’t fight it.
In our smaller pastures and paddocks and worse, pens, horses have to live with each other if they like it or not.
If some have differences, even buddied up horses do some times, someone can get hurt easily, not having anywhere to go but over a fence.

While we humans smile and love watching horses getting along and having “friends”, as we humans like, horses don’t necessarily all like other horses for “friends”, not always, not all the time.
My now 22 year old spent 4 years with a friend that one day decide to pick on him to the point that it was an accident about to happen.
Since then, he definitely doesn’t like any other horse, prefers to be alone, even hides when other horses come to use our arena, don’t even want to watch them over the fence.
Then, another horse would run around and nicker trying to keep up with other horses coming and going.

With these two mares, how many more times will the vet have to come out, if we humans insist they live together, when they obviously have their differences?
Some will say, horses are horses, let them figure it out, it will eventually work.
Well, how would you like to have to live with an abusive friend, how many more times will the vet need to come out?

If they are fine on their own and a way can be found to keep them separated, even if inconvenient, why not try that?

[ayrabz]

So, just help us understand…You only have one acre for four horses? No way to separate any? (As in: do you HAVE more acreage, but haven’t fenced or set it up, or is that one acre paddock it and forever? Could you cross fence the one acre and all of them still have turnout and run ins and heated water source? Just trying to know if you HAVE any options or not. The one option you will never have: if two horses want to fight and you insist to keep them together, they’ll keep fighting and getting hurt. Figuring out pasture / turn out compatability is REAL. Your set up as is won’t accomodate the issues you’re having.

[candyappy]

1 acre is really small when they don’t get along. It doesn’t give them any way to really separate. I am worried that once they need to seek shelter that the fighting will really ramp up or the loser will be denied access to shelter , food and water.

Sometimes they just don’t get along and can’t live together.

[lenapesadie]

Four head per acre is pretty high density, especially with mares. I think you need reduced herd numbers OR cross fencing OR additional acreage. Best case scenario would be all three.

Kick chains are not the answer.

Can you stall these horses? Maybe rotate in pairs between turn out and stalls?

[skydy]

I missed that these 4 horses are on one acre. OP, that’s much too small a space if you have no way to separate them.