2018 WEG Discussion Thread

[GramV]

I am completely bummed by this.

I finally caught up with the GPS. Not an Isabel fan, but I do agree with the judging and placings. I saw less of a halo effect on the GPS than the GP. (I feel Isabel, Carl, and Charlotte got halo points in the GP.) The judges seem to have been mostly equally tough and generous on everyone in the GPS, which is nice to see.

It is so exciting to see these horses coming up. I’m really liking that the leg flingers and pulled in neck flat backed horses (Isabel) are not winning so much anymore. I really, really like what I see in this new batch of horses where they are truly through the back and more open in the neck. Many of them has issues because they are so athletic and using themselves, they lost some balance, but that’s just a greenness issue. It’s nice to see that the future looks more like horses who are really correcting working through their backs and trained and conditioned and not just turned into piaffe/passage machines.

That said, I doubt it would happen, but it would sure be nice if the FEI changes the GP to redistribute the value of the p/p. It’s too much and allows what we see happens. That shouldn’t be the primary consideration for what makes a top dressage horse. I kind of like the GPS which has two one tempi lines, putting more focus on that. How could they another movement in the half pass to increase that? The walk? Maybe put back in the rocker (halt, back, walk, back, trot) and a walk pirouette to increase the emphasis on training in the walk, and not just natural ability and relaxation>

[ladyj79]

Because the walk pirouettes appear at the lower levels specifically to prepare for later more advanced movements?

ten years ago people complained about the leg flinging (As you are still doing) and now about pp (which you are also complaining about).

The reality is some horses are going to be better at some movements, so much so that they win a lot, fwiw valegros pp are exceptional. And yet you’ll still see horses who aren’t particularly super at something like trot, for instance, still be overall pretty successful.

and of course people will complain regardless.

oh and glad to see hating Isabelle is still the thing.

[Crockpot]

@ladyj79

oh and glad to see hating Isabelle is still the thing.

I dont see hate for isabelle on this thread unless you count the one person who said she was not a fan?

but maybe I missed where you are seeing all the hate.

[pluvinel]

@ladyj79

Yes, the footing is that different. It would be literally physically dangerous for the dressage horses to try to compete on reining footing. Of all the bad moves coming out of tryon, cancelling this event isn’t one of them, although it does again highlight the lack of preparation.

Please educate me…why would it be “dangerous” for a dressage horse to compete in “reining footing?”

A horse is a horse is a horse. A performance horse using itself in an athletic manner will walk/trot/canter…same as every other horse.

A reining horse is no different than a dressage horse…except dressage does not ask for a sliding stop…which puts a lot more stress in suspensory ligaments than any dressage move I can think of.

Enquiring minds are eager to be educated.

[ladyj79]

I believe in practical exercises. Go run in deep soft sand, and then go run in shallow hard packed blue stone. Experience the difference for yourself.

the beautiful thing is though, people who aren’t ignorant of the needs and requirements of these horses are in charge of their care, and not people who don’t understand the difference and seem angry that professionals think and know differently than they do.

[ladyj79]

And fwiw, offering arguments as to why you think your opinion is more valid than the professionals and owners and caretakers of these horses really doesn’t suggest you have any interest in learning.

[2tempe]

@Crockpot

I believe they are doing what is best for the horses. It has to be beyond disappointing for all involved.

There is some flooding already at the WEG site.

.

I was wondering if they would get some flooding; there were lots of advisories in the general area. Just curious - where did you hear?

Regarding the dressage competition, I have heard and seen that Isabelle is a master at test riding. I would have loved for Laura to beat her, but I also couldn’t help but be moved by Isabelle’s emotions at the end of her test and the bond she has with this mare.
Also impressed with the number of younger/greener horses that put in some pretty awesome preformances.

[yaya]

@2tempe

I was wondering if they would get some flooding; there were lots of advisories in the general area. Just curious - where did you hear?

Regarding the dressage competition, I have heard and seen that Isabelle is a master at test riding. I would have loved for Laura to beat her, but I also couldn’t help but be moved by Isabelle’s emotions at the end of her test and the bond she has with this mare.
Also impressed with the number of younger/greener horses that put in some pretty awesome preformances.

The jog area this morning:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156004664898403&id=622313402

[pluvinel]

@ladyj79

I believe in practical exercises. Go run in deep soft sand, and then go run in shallow hard packed blue stone. Experience the difference for yourself.

the beautiful thing is though, people who aren’t ignorant of the needs and requirements of these horses are in charge of their care, and not people who don’t understand the difference and seem angry that professionals think and know differently than they do.

@ladyj79

And fwiw, offering arguments as to why you think your opinion is more valid than the professionals and owners and caretakers of these horses really doesn’t suggest you have any interest in learning.

I am not offering an opinion…I am asking a question.

It is an honest attempt to understand your POV…no need for insults.

A reining horse walks, trots, canters, gallops. How is that stress any different from the stresses put on the suspensory ligaments in a dressage horse’s walk/trot/canter work?

It isn’t like one discipline does all its work at the walk and another at the gallop, so I was wondering how people would see different needs for the two disciplines.

Just think of me as the village idiot asking questions.

[GramV]

@ladyj79

Because the walk pirouettes appear at the lower levels specifically to prepare for later more advanced movements?

ten years ago people complained about the leg flinging (As you are still doing) and now about pp (which you are also complaining about).

The reality is some horses are going to be better at some movements, so much so that they win a lot, fwiw valegros pp are exceptional. And yet you’ll still see horses who aren’t particularly super at something like trot, for instance, still be overall pretty successful.

and of course people will complain regardless.

oh and glad to see hating Isabelle is still the thing.

Wow. You know so much? Yes, the walk pirouettes are to prepare for everything. I was making suggestions to change the % from 40% of the test on p/p to less, and that’s an idea. Yes, I do know ten and twenty and thirty years ago, when I was also riding these levels as now, these suggestions were made.

Did you know they review and change the tests once in awhile? The do! And these are my suggestions! Yes! All horses are better are some movements than others. My point was that it now requires that the winners must specialize in p/p. What about changing it so that the winners are more all around and not just specialists?

I do see how you complain a lot. Oh well, you are entitled to. Some people want to keep working towards continual improvement of the sport to get to where we are now, seeing this amazing level of riding and horses! If you’re not aware, 10 and 20, let alone 30 years ago, it was not nearly as good as now, with some blips up and down. So, the constant critical eye to what we’re seeing and how we can improve it for the horses, riders, and sports has really worked!

You hate Isabel? That’s your right. I think she is very good, but, like I said, I don’t like the pulled up lack of throughness look even though they are p/p machines. Check out ClipMyHorse videos and translate the comments. They really are all over her.

[Kyrabee]

@pluvinel

Please educate me…why would it be “dangerous” for a dressage horse to compete in “reining footing?”

A horse is a horse is a horse. A performance horse using itself in an athletic manner will walk/trot/canter…same as every other horse.

A reining horse is no different than a dressage horse…except dressage does not ask for a sliding stop…which puts a lot more stress in suspensory ligaments than any dressage move I can think of.

Enquiring minds are eager to be educated.

It is more a matter of conditioning than the actual footing perhaps. Reining footing is much deeper and heavier. Of course the horses just walk trot and canter but for a horse used to packed but “springy” 2 inch deep largely synthetic footing would struggle in 3-4 inch sand. With proper conditioning and consistent riding on that type of footing, yes you could do it although I think very few (none?) international riders would ride in that kind of footing for Dressage. Compact and shorter QH’s are a bit conformationally different than your “average” International caliber WB’s. Would I take my GP horse with no prior conditioning on such footing in to do a freestyle. NO WAY.

Susan

[ladyj79]

@pluvinel

Please educate me…why would it be “dangerous” for a dressage horse to compete in “reining footing?”

A horse is a horse is a horse. A performance horse using itself in an athletic manner will walk/trot/canter…same as every other horse.

A reining horse is no different than a dressage horse…except dressage does not ask for a sliding stop…which puts a lot more stress in suspensory ligaments than any dressage move I can think of.

Enquiring minds are eager to be educated.

the above isn’t opinion?

[x-halt-salute]

@pluvinel

Please educate me…why would it be “dangerous” for a dressage horse to compete in “reining footing?”

A horse is a horse is a horse. A performance horse using itself in an athletic manner will walk/trot/canter…same as every other horse.

A reining horse is no different than a dressage horse…except dressage does not ask for a sliding stop…which puts a lot more stress in suspensory ligaments than any dressage move I can think of.

Enquiring minds are eager to be educated.

Well, eventers ride through water, but you wouldn’t expect someone to put in a GP dressage test in the middle of a water complex …

Reiners are different than dressage horses, notably in that they’re conditioned to the sort of deep, soft footing the discipline prefers. Most dressage horses haven’t been worked in that kind of footing, and may thus be at greater risk of injury simply because their locomotion is adapted to different surface properties and their soft tissues may not have developed the same level of elasticity and strength as those of a horse who has been conditioned to working in deep footing. I believe Hillary Clayton has done research on footing types, locomotion, and injury risk if your interest is earnest.

Not to mention that work in deep footing is more fatiguing, and thus the hard work of a GP test becomes even harder in reining-type footing. This means greater risk of injury to muscles/tendons/ligaments and could make the heat/humidity more of a problem as well.

[ladyj79]

@GramV

Wow. You know so much? Yes, the walk pirouettes are to prepare for everything. I was making suggestions to change the % from 40% of the test on p/p to less, and that’s an idea. Yes, I do know ten and twenty and thirty years ago, when I was also riding these levels as now, these suggestions were made.

Did you know they review and change the tests once in awhile? The do! And these are my suggestions! Yes! All horses are better are some movements than others. My point was that it now requires that the winners must specialize in p/p. What about changing it so that the winners are more all around and not just specialists?

I do see how you complain a lot. Oh well, you are entitled to. Some people want to keep working towards continual improvement of the sport to get to where we are now, seeing this amazing level of riding and horses! If you’re not aware, 10 and 20, let alone 30 years ago, it was not nearly as good as now, with some blips up and down. So, the constant critical eye to what we’re seeing and how we can improve it for the horses, riders, and sports has really worked!

You hate Isabel? That’s your right. I think she is very good, but, like I said, I don’t like the pulled up lack of throughness look even though they are p/p machines. Check out ClipMyHorse videos and translate the comments. They really are all over her.

have you seen guardians of the galaxy? This feels like “nothing goes over my head, my reflexes are too fast, I would catch it!” Keep on keeping on.
:lol::lol:

[pluvinel]

@ladyj79

the above isn’t opinion?

An opinion is a declarative statement. A declarative sentence states a fact. I DID makes statements of fact about horses walking, trotting and cantering in their respective disciplines.

Please where I have made any declarations about footing. I ask again…a question… “What is the difference in dressage vs reining riding that requires different footing?”

And thanks to the folks that did offer some educational insights.

[ladyj79]

Because horses are horses and all the same and a reiner is no different from a dressage horse is definitely an opinion dude, and a bad one.

[pluvinel]

@x-halt-salute

Well, eventers ride through water, but you wouldn’t expect someone to put in a GP dressage test in the middle of a water complex …

Reiners are different than dressage horses, notably in that they’re conditioned to the sort of deep, soft footing the discipline prefers. Most dressage horses haven’t been worked in that kind of footing, and may thus be at greater risk of injury simply because their locomotion is adapted to different surface properties and their soft tissues may not have developed the same level of elasticity and strength as those of a horse who has been conditioned to working in deep footing. I believe Hillary Clayton has done research on footing types, locomotion, and injury risk if your interest is earnest.

Not to mention that work in deep footing is more fatiguing, and thus the hard work of a GP test becomes even harder in reining-type footing. This means greater risk of injury to muscles/tendons/ligaments and could make the heat/humidity more of a problem as well.

Well…I have seen some dressage arenas during a rain storm that become like a 3-Day water complex…and the good horses troop along and get their job done.

Some of us believe that “dressage horses” should be capable of functioning in less than perfect conditions…which is one of the reasons I like to school in less that perfect footing.

[pluvinel]

@ladyj79

Because horses are horses and all the same and a reiner is no different from a dressage horse is definitely an opinion dude, and a bad one.

As I said, I offered opinions about horses…NOT about footing.

[ladyj79]

But you aren’t a world ranked FEI dressage rider with a team in place to care for a world class FEI dressage horse, so your opinion of what you would do isn’t really applicable in that world. Not sure why it bothers you so much.

[pluvinel]

@ladyj79

But you aren’t a world ranked FEI dressage rider with a team in place to care for a world class FEI dressage horse, so your opinion of what you would do isn’t really applicable in that world. Not sure why it bothers you so much.

True…def not FEI rider.

As I said, just think of me as the village idiot asking idiot questions…humor me.