2024 Olympics - Eventing

[Texarkana]

@Marigold

But the vast majority of “not fresh” horses will not pull 5 rails, which is 20 penalties. Assuming the horse being subbed out completed the previous phase, why do you think that doesn’t make up the gap (or more)? And the substitute horse can and often does still incur penalties above that.

I agree most aren’t pulling 5 rails in SJ, but here’s my problem:

A glance off is 20 penalties. A flag is 15 penalities. Even a pin is 11 penalties. All three of those things can happen due to bad luck and be absolutely no reflection of the combo’s ability.

Yet the whole point of eventing is to complete three phases! If you can’t complete three phases, shouldn’t the penalty be significantly higher than incidentals that happen on XC?

Your team can ride near XC flawless courses but have a pin and some time and have higher penalities than a team who couldn’t even SJ all their horses the next day.

Plus, a fresh horse in SJ is an advantage, hands down.

Japan rode their pants off; I’m not trying to take anything away from them. It’s not that they are undeserving. I just have a real problem that you can not complete a team and still medal. If Australia or Germany or Italy medaled, I’d have the same criticism. But the nature of their eliminations prevented that. I feel like that’s how it should be across the board.

[SadieRidingHorses]

There was an LA fence on XC yesterday.

[jcraig10]

Great Britain team had a 15 XC penalty and still pulled off the Gold. Dressage is so important …even if we do like to say “this isn’t a dressage competition”

Plenty of drama over the 3 days, and nothing so bad that it’ll cast a bad light. I hope eventing gained a few new fans from this Olympics!

[Marigold]

@Texarkana

A glance off is 20 penalties. A flag is 15 penalities. A even a pin is 11 penalties. All three of those things can happen due to bad luck and be absolutely no reflection of the combo’s ability.

My biggest point here is that this substitution happened after the cross country phase, so we shouldn’t be thinking of it in terms of cross country penalties, we should be thinking in terms of show jumping (since that is what the substituted pair will be tackling). Through to the end of cross country, there was no difference in the way Team Japan was scored vs any other complete team.

That said, I disagree that a glance off can happen exclusively due to bad luck (after Ros this time and Michael last time, no comment on the luck involved with flags or pins). It’s not necessarily a reflection of their overall ability, but it is an active error horse and rider have made on course, and penalized as such, as it should be. I don’t think a team that finished three riders clear but had to deal with a stone bruise overnight should be behind a team that made mistakes on the cross country.

Withdrawing your horse for a welfare concern is the opposite of an error. Of course, you don’t want to put a team further ahead because of that or reward it in any way, but allowing them to substitute the pair and adding five rails to their score to compensate for the relative freshness of the new horse seems more than adequate. A fresh horse is definitely an advantage, but it’s not five rails worth of advantage! And again, the new horse still has to jump and add penalties themselves.

(To be clear, I still hate that we do this substituting at all. The traditional team format is much more appropriate IMO, especially when you consider issues like Kevin McNab’s and the huge incentives he was working against to make the right choice there. But if we’re doing it this way, I do think 20 penalties more than compensates for a fresh horse in show jumping).

[RosebudLaVie]

GAH this was THE MOST ANNOYING.

[Annie_Burton]

Speaking of—
just watched Julia Krajewski / Nickel’s dressage round…
beautiful:

Sportschau Olympia 2024: Vielseitigkeit - der Dressurritt von Julia Krajewski...

[Texarkana]

@Marigold

My biggest point here is that this substitution happened after the cross country phase, so we shouldn’t be thinking of it in terms of cross country penalties, we should be thinking in terms of show jumping (since that is what the substituted pair will be tackling). Through to the end of cross country, there was no difference in the way Team Japan was scored vs any other complete team.

I disagree with this so strongly. Penalities are penalties because they all affect your score the same. Your 4 faults in SJ are no different than 4 time faults XC or a botched move in the dressage test in the end.

Subbing in a horse is HUGE. It changes the entire sport.

There are a lot of dressage-bred horses who could put down a low score and jump well enough to get around a 4* course under the conditioning of an Olympic-caliber pro. But there’s not a lot who can do that and still come back and be careful enough not to pull a rail or more. Just like there are plenty of show jumpers who could easily jump clear, but aren’t going to go XC.

That’s what sets eventing apart from pure dressage or show jumping.

You can take welfare into consideration without removing the entire point of the sport. We saw it in action with the other countries who earned steeper penalties.

[FitToBeTied]

I think we could all agree that being in the Olympics is slowly but steadily destroying eventing. It was the Olympics that killed the long format and it’s all been down hill from there. There is no endurance phase in eventing anymore, just XC. How soon do the short dressage tests like we just saw become the standard in a 5*?

[hopashore1]

It certainly now creates a strategy where your reserve horse’s jumping skills may be more important than their dressage, and selection strategies might start to account for that.

Showing that you can medal with a substitution–as long as you finish cross country and avoid the 200 penalties–worries me. Sarah Ennis’s horse was not quite right jumping the last few fences (and indeed was subbed out ahead of the horse inspection).

Was it in the horse’s best interest to finish? No. Was it in the team’s interest? Yes (though obviously Ireland wasn’t in the position Japan is. I haven’t seen Cekatinka’s round to say if that was the case there too). As long as is still better to finish on an injured horse if you can avoid too many XC penalties in doing so I think we’re at risk of seeing a really bad decision in the field of play. (Not saying we did this year)

[Marigold]

@Texarkana

I disagree with this so strongly. Penalities are penalties because they all affect your score the same. Your 4 faults in SJ are no different than 4 time faults XC or a botched move in the dressage test in the end.

I’ll agree that all penalties affect your score the same - math is objective, for sure!

@Texarkana

Subbing in a horse is HUGE. It changes the entire sport.

There are a lot of dressage-bred horses who could put down a low score and jump well enough to get around a 4* course under the conditioning of an Olympic-caliber pro. But there’s not a lot who can do that and still come back and be careful enough not to pull a rail or more. Just like there are plenty of show jumpers who could easily jump clear, but aren’t going to go XC.

Yes, and I do disagree with it as a practice - the drop score is far more true to the sport, IMO. But if it helps, remember that all of these horses had to qualify in full format. Valegro isn’t here hoping someone else can do the cross country (well, London 52 is here, which is looking pretty close, but he does his own xc).

I just absolutely disagree that withdrawing a horse for a welfare concern (assuming you didn’t run it into the ground, which is an issue for the ground jury and certainly not applicable in this case) is a bigger error than a runout.

[SusanO]

As far as substitutions go - I thought the whole point of the stadium phase was to show that your horse could jump a grueling cross country and still be sound and fit enough the next day to get over a stadium course. The way this is - what is to stop the German team from having Ingrid Klimke ride dressage and cross country with Abraxas and then sub in Marcus Ehning (sp) and Classic Touch for stadium. That would be worth 20 points for sure. I know this is a joke but I bet there are plenty of horses out there that can do the first two phases really well and cannot jump a good stadium course. Especially if they don’t have to jump a cross country and make the time. I am sure the Prices have some like this and there are probably lots of them. So I think this is a dumb rule. Especially with only 20 penalty points.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

To substitute between phases, you need veterinary/medical approval. The Japanese substitution occurred after the horse was held at the second horse inspection.

[Texarkana]

@Marigold

I just absolutely disagree that withdrawing a horse for a welfare concern (assuming you didn’t run it into the ground, which is an issue for the ground jury and certainly not applicable in this case) is a bigger error than a runout.

We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

And to be fair, I’m not arguing that most stops are caused by human error- of course they are.

But not all stops are equal. Sometimes the rider misses, sometimes your horse tosses a shoe right before the fence and doesn’t want to play, or sometimes an unlucky shadow catches the eye of even the most seasoned horse. You have to give them all the same penalty.

But your horse not being able to do three phases means it didn’t complete the event!

@hopashore1 explained the issue perfectly. Why would you pull up an injured or exhausted horse on XC immediately (as you should) and take 200 penalties when you can nurse them home and only earn 20? That’s whack.

[wanderlust]

@SusanO

The way this is - what is to stop the German team from having Ingrid Klimke ride dressage and cross country with Abraxas and then sub in Marcus Ehning (sp) and Classic Touch for stadium.

Unless Marcus Ehning runs the full gamut of qualifiers from 1* on up, this is not a thing.

[SusanO]

Yes I can see this as a welfare issue. If you go for broke cross country to make the time on a horse that might be pushed above his abilities and you have the ability to sub in a fresh horse, what is to eliminate the temptation to do this?

[Charlieandme]

Random question but do reserve riders who don’t get called up like Yasmin Ingham or the French reserve rider get medals?

[Marigold]

@Texarkana

But not all stops are equal. Sometimes the rider misses, sometimes your horse tosses a shoe right before the fence and doesn’t want to play, or sometimes an unlucky shadow catches the eye of even the most seasoned horse. You have to give them all the same penalty.

But your horse not being able to do three phases means it didn’t complete the event!

Sure, but not all horse inspection issues are equal. Sometimes your horse doesn’t complete the event because that thrown shoe you mentioned resulted in a stone bruise, or because the horse overreached and grabbed a heel (London 52 did this at Luhmuhlen a month ago). It doesn’t always mean massive mismanagement and care of the horse overnight (in fact, I’d argue it rarely does). Speaking on a one-time, event-by-event basis, I would argue there is far more luck in overnight soundness than in refusals.

@Texarkana

Why would you pull up an injured or exhausted horse on XC immediately (as you should) and take 200 penalties when you can nurse them home and only earn 20? That’s whack.

This, I agree with you 100%, no exceptions. In my first post I mentioned how unfair it was that Kevin McNab got 200 penalties for pulling up four from home for soundness reasons. There needs to be a difference in penalty between falling off and pulling up for welfare reasons.

@wanderlust

Unless Marcus Ehning runs the full gamut of qualifiers from 1* on up, this is not a thing.

Absolutely correct.

[wanderlust]

@Marigold

This, I agree with you 100%, no exceptions. In my first post I mentioned how unfair it was that Kevin McNab got 200 penalties for pulling up four from home for soundness reasons. There needs to be a difference in penalty between falling off and pulling up for welfare reasons.

I totally agree with you, and this all illustrates how absolutely absurd how the sport has been pretzeled in order to still be in the olympics yet still does not actually improve horse welfare in any way.

[SadieRidingHorses]

And one on the individual show jump course (I’m just watching the replay).

[Larksmom]

no. the who reason we are now doing 3 person teams is so they don’t give a medal to a drop score.