https://youtu.be/hrZgtrqbMVI I thought I’d share this here. Many know this but I know some might disagree.
I’ve seen many of these behaviors and later a clear correlation.
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That was really educational (just finished watching), thank you for sharing!
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That was interesting, I’d love to see a diagram of the behaviors and a more in depth look at scoring. It may be a useful tool for riders to use in order to determine when it’s time to have the vet out.
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Interesting but also pretty depressing to me. I wonder if as we get better at detecting lameness and learn more about equine cognition/emotion, we will come to a point where it no longer seems humane to ride them at all. The feel-good interpretation of horses working through discomfort is that they are incredibly generous, but I worry that really they are just obedient and as prey animals are hard-wired to be stoic.
Here’s a link to one of the studies applying the RHPE scale: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32560486/
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Very interesting! I think much of this we kind of know intuitively, even if we don’t want to admit it. I love how this researcher proves these behaviors have an association with pain. Not to say a horse isn’t smart enough to use a version of these behaviors to avoid work, but, again, looking at their face can tell you if they hurt.
How many times have you sold a horse that you had been riding regularly, only for the buyer to say they were showing lameness soon afterwards? That horse wanted to perform for you, their partner. We know horses mask pain, if it’s mild enough. They didn’t have that same motivation with a new rider, so now that pesky little ache became more apparent.
As a runner, especially as an older runner, I think about muscle soreness with my mare. She is in her late teens now, and that means more prone to aches and pains. I try to ride her every other day and increase distance slowly, so she doesn’t get too sore. I run every other day myself, so I try that with her. Time to recover between workouts.
Then, there’s the old horse that is semi retired. You know moving is better than sitting still. They seem to know that, too. How many times have you ridden an old horse gently as they warmed up? You knew they were working through arthritis and age associated ache and pains, but you also knew that they needed exercise to keep those joints in good enough shape. When my first mare was in her 30s, I worried about her stiffening up, so I ponied her along on short rides to keep her in shape.
One more thought about this. I’ve always been aggravated by these trainers that take a horse from unbroke to saddling and riding in one day. Yes, they cooperate, but only because they are exhausted. Can you imagine how sore they are the next day? Can you imagine how that young colt or filly that has only been lightly messed with, is feeling drenched in sweat and ridden? This isn’t training. This is completely wearing down a horse to the point of exhaustion and surrender. It’s just another form of breaking. Training slowly in shorter sessions is much kinder.
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I am planning on recommending this video to my riding teachers.
I’ve seen these behaviors so much at the rather large (38 horses) very well run stable where I take lessons. As a pretty severely handicapped rider with MS I end up on horses that are relatively safe to ride (for me) and have some “problems”. My “job” if I choose to accept it, is to get these horses safer for her students and more rideable for basic lessons and mild trail riding.
I do not ever feed treats by hand, never, ever, ever. However I end up spoiling these horses with all the therapeutic gear I use on them, mainly saddle pads, poll/head caps, “butt blankets”, and exercise boots and leg/pastern wraps made with the far-infrared radiation therapy fabrics (BOT, Fenwick). You see I am also ancient, I also have creaky joints that go OUCH, I have sore muscles with old injuries, and I know how these often elderly horses can hurt just by moving around.
Besides I ride Forward Seat, and if I feel that the horse’s back is stiff and painful I get my butt out of the back part of the saddle. At first I NEED to go into 2-point, then I am allowed a crotch seat. I rarely constrain the horse’s movements. My contact is very light and if the horse wants to go off contact I train them to be obedient on loose reins.
I cannot afford to do this specialized veterinary care on horses. I cannot afford to buy these horses saddles that fit “perfectly” and keep that saddle fitting “perfectly”. I can invest in all these things that give non-drug therapeutic relief and ride in the least abusive way possible.
Most of the horses I ride improve. No total transformations (that would take expensive veterinary care and retraining), but they improve enough so that they can be used some in the stable’s group lessons and occasional easy trail rides.
I’ve seen these behaviors. I do all I can to make the horse comfortable enough so that they voluntarily stop these behaviors.
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I watched it last night and shared it on FB. Hopefully it will open some people’s eyes, but guessing the people who really need to watch it, won’t. I was very sad for the main horse/owner, though surprised the same imaging hadn’t been done before, given everything she’d tried in the past.
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Great stuff. I also shared it on Facebook just now when I finished watching.
As said up thread a bit, it does almost lead to the idea that riding them at all might not really be the best thing. They weren’t designed to carry 100+ pounds on their backs for sustained (or any) length of time, much less to do the things we expect them to do with us sitting on their backs. Jumping, running, spinning, sliding, doing Grand Prix dressage movements. Nothing about what we do with them is natural. They were not designed to do any of it. Not really. So, it seems obvious that all of them will experience some level of pain or discomfort just due to the nature of what we want them to do. And as prey animals, they will remain stoic as long as possible before their flight or fight instinct takes over and we see the clear behaviors that tell us they’re (by that point) very uncomfortable.
It’s definitely food for thought. And I do believe horses can be sound and happy as riding partners. I just think we have to be realistic about our expectations and we need to listen when our horses tell us they are not happy doing a particular job. And if that means the Grand Prix jumping hopeful becomes a horse that hacks around the farm and is in semi-retirement, then so be it. I take care of a friend’s OTTB mare who was her dressage/eventing horse. The mare’s discomfort and obvious pain was explored extensively and the decision was made to retire her (she’s 10 or 11 years old). She lives in a pasture and gets loved on and maybe hacked around lightly once in a while (a couple times a month maybe).
Anyway, thanks for sharing the video. I hope a lot of people watch it.
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That was a spectacular video. Totally resonated with my experiences! I posted on our barns website. Thanks for sharing this.
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Great video, thanks for sharing. I sent to my barn as well. Nothing new there but a great teaching tool. Having Jeannine Berger included in the credits seals the deal for me. Her work is incredible.
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I think some discomfort is expected but I think it can be like going to the gym or having a personal trainer. I’ve seen and ridden horses that do just go better with someone guiding them and teaching them how to use their bodies. But I think some muscles soreness is very different than a sore suspensary or other chronic injuries.
It does make me sad that it is way more prevalent than people probably think. And it’s possible that the average horse person does not want to do what’s needed to have a fairly comfortable horse. It complicated for sure.
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Right. We are expecting them to be athletes. And there’s some level of acceptable athletic discomfort. I think the important point is that the # of pain signals that correlated with lameness or clinical muscle-skeletal pain. When the lameness is subtle or masked by the fact that it’s in multiple limbs or structures or where the pain is axial skeletal and not resulting in lower limb lameness, tallying the pain signals can be a way to determine statistically if there is a clinical problem there. I think that’s the most important take away as well as bringing awareness to these behaviors not being “normal”, so that you start paying attention to them and start to notice how many of them are being exhibited or what they might tell you—like whether there’s a tack related problem in an otherwise healthy horse.
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Yes this is how I see it. Just be aware and investigate if multiple behaviors start to pop up.
One thing that I think can be difficult is a really talented and strong rider such as a professional, I think can mask or push through some of these behaviors. Like the video said sometimes they do just try and please. Sometimes I think they can just show more behaviors with an amateur but it doesn’t always mean that that it’s behavior or even the rider really.
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She seemed a little naive and seemed like she thought just an injection somewhere else would fix it. I did feel bad they gave her a career ending diagnosis in front of the cameras as she struck me as having major “Galina is my heart horse/soulmate” vibes. I would have preferred this being done with professionals who are used to the ups and downs with horses and then having them have a practical discussion afterwards.
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I am glad they used it. Here’s a normal horse person with the horse she loves (just like you and you and you out there in audience land) and this is what can happen when we track discomfort down. Even better, THIS is the way a responsible horse owner behaves given such a heart-wrenching diagnosis.
I cried, but it was a brilliant choice to make for the film and I wish I could send that owner a piece of my heart to make up for the giant hole in hers. Clearly, she doesn’t need any of my strength though!
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Yes, totally. She clearly wanted the best for her horse. I’m sad for her that she didn’t find vets and trainers that could give her better advice sooner. There was also the saddle fit thing.
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Sadly I was only able to watch part of it but will watch it in its entirety later. I agree 100% with everything I saw so far. I was shocked at the % of horses of professional riders and showing in high levels who were in fact lame?
How many horses are treated for ulcers instead of looking for lameness. Very eye opening.
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Yes! Many pros (well ammies too!) would chalk the behaviours as bad behaviours rather than a horse trying so hard to do what the rider wants yet is in pain and showing that pain.
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I think it’s important to remember horses are individuals and what one horse will ‘work through’ isn’t the same as another, and we need to respect that, and look for signs our horses need help (without over analyzing everything they do).
I have a bad ankle and a bad knee. Both HURT when I start hiking, running, etc. In both cases it’s tendon damage, so they start out really stiff. But despite the pain, I still enjoy and want to do the activity.
My oldest horse has arthritis in both front feet, both hocks, and both stifles. He’s pulled his check ligament, had windpuffs, nerved his left front once in a pasture accident, and his lower legs would get us laughed out of a in hand class. He’s stiff to begin when we work, drags his hind toes (until we start doing the fun stuff), doesn’t push off well from behind in the beginning, and is a little underdeveloped over his top line. He’s always about a .5 grade lameness bilaterally up front at the trot on hard surfaces. We start out every ride slow. But he still LOVES his job, and will jump without prompting (without tack on. Just decided to go jump stuff. I have video).
He has opinions and will tell me when he’s having a bad day. And on those days we just stop and go back to the barn. But most of the time his love of his job is strong enough that he will push through discomfort, just like I do with my ankle and knee.
A friend of mine has a horse who is younger and doesn’t have the same ‘jewelry’ mine does. It’s also been a trail horse in very light work it’s whole life. That horse has the same arthritis in its coffin bones/navicular bones as mine, but it’s slightly less in severity.
That horse was diagnosed when it went so lame they thought it foundered. It would not walk, which is weird because navicular usually doesn’t cause that bad of lameness, so they did an MRI to make sure there wasn’t any soft tissue damage (there wasn’t). The horse never got more sound, so they eventually nerved it. She no longer rides it but at least it’s not in pain anymore. They X-ray yearly to check the progression and there’s been almost no change in the severity in 5+ years.
So, my point is horses are individuals and we have to take these behaviors as a whole picture, which is think was also the vet’s point too. You can’t look at a horse swishing it’s tail and immediately know it’s in pain. You have to factor in how many behaviors are happening, what the circumstances are, and the horses’ attitude towards work. Maybe your mare swishes her tail, pins her ears the whole ride and bites at you when you do up the girth. But then you take into account that there’s multiple horses in the arena (and she doesn’t like other horses) and there’s flies. Maybe your horse head tilts, but you change bits and it stops. In both cases the horse is in discomfort. But that isn’t because the horse can’t be ridden without pain.
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Wow that video hit a teary nerve for me.ostly because I’ve been in that owners place.
I am glad this video exist. I am lucky enough to have a dressage trainer who specializes in how horses move and found a vet who does sports med for horses. I took my horse last January to him after my dressage trainer said there was something NQR and we found he need both halks injected and coffin joints in front injected. My vet was happy that I was coming to him before the lameness was even a grade 1 on flexions.
Because of this video next year (coming up very quickly) I will ask for both a lameness exam in hand and under saddle. He tends to tosses right shoulder and not weight his right hind. I feel like last year’s treatments did wonders and now we are getting to the root of the issue.
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