"2nd level-Horse frame"?

[sophie]

I’m riding a friend’s horse for a couple weeks. He is a solid Training / 1st level horse and goes nicely if lacking impulsion and needing a lot of legs and core.
Watching me ride him the other day, the barn’s instructor told me in passing, “He needs to be ridden in a 2nd-level-horse frame”.
(Side note - I think she thinks too highly of my ability as a rider especially now that I only ride sporadically…!)

So my question is, what exactly does she mean.
I don’t like the term “frame”. I think it means I need to ask him to “sit” more, engage his hind legs more. There are actually moments when I feel him doing just that, mostly on a 10m circle at canter. His withers and poll come up, the contact gets nice and soft, the hind legs really go under. It is an awesome feeling!

I am very out of shape though, so can only keep that for a few strides. And I know the core of the issue here really is my fitness level. sigh and I am working on it (riding that horse is like going to the gym lol).

I guess I just want to know if I am on the right track, and what gymnastic exercises we can do to promote that. We are already doing S/I, H/I, turn on the haunches to trot, a few steps back to trot. The latter exercise works the best to get that fleeting feeling but then I can’t keep it and he reverts to his usual way of going.

[beowulf]

I think this is a wonderful question to ask the trainer. Just say as you’ve said here - you’re not confident you understand just what she means, can she explain so you can better perform?

I imagine she means she wants to see more uphill movement, the beginnings of collection, and forward engagement. Each test has a directive — perhaps look at Second Level’s test to get a feel for what your trainers expectations may be.

[Lusoluv]

I think you have a very good grasp of dressage basics and have quickly assessed your friend’s horse. I also think you are doing a lot of the right exercises, while realizing your abilities at this time. If you ride sporadically and are just riding this horse for a couple weeks, why not keep up what you are doing and not worry about what a trainer said in passing? A couple weeks won’t influence this horse dramatically, and if he’s used to being a “nice ride” for your friend he’s probably doing his best to understand your way of riding for the time being? No need to put pressure on either one of you - enjoy him!

[merrygoround]

I agree with Lusoluv. The barn’s instructor needs to examine her vocabulary. The use of “frame” concerning a horse sets my teeth on edge. A clod can put a standing still horse in a “frame”

The missing word here is “engagement”, which takes both horse and rider fitness…

[eightpondfarm]

If the horse is Training Level/ First Level just maybe perhaps s/he’s not ready for any ‘frame’ yet. Maybe you could work on collection in general more gradually. Just a thought…

[Scribbler]

@sophie

I’m riding a friend’s horse for a couple weeks. He is a solid Training / 1st level horse and goes nicely if lacking impulsion and needing a lot of legs and core.
Watching me ride him the other day, the barn’s instructor told me in passing, “He needs to be ridden in a 2nd-level-horse frame”.
(Side note - I think she thinks too highly of my ability as a rider especially now that I only ride sporadically…!)

So my question is, what exactly does she mean.
I don’t like the term “frame”. I think it means I need to ask him to “sit” more, engage his hind legs more. There are actually moments when I feel him doing just that, mostly on a 10m circle at canter. His withers and poll come up, the contact gets nice and soft, the hind legs really go under. It is an awesome feeling!

I am very out of shape though, so can only keep that for a few strides. And I know the core of the issue here really is my fitness level. sigh and I am working on it (riding that horse is like going to the gym lol).

I guess I just want to know if I am on the right track, and what gymnastic exercises we can do to promote that. We are already doing S/I, H/I, turn on the haunches to trot, a few steps back to trot. The latter exercise works the best to get that fleeting feeling but then I can’t keep it and he reverts to his usual way of going.

So for me, if a person says “frame” to me I would tend to smile and disregard all their advice because that usage of the word tells me they are fundamentally ignorant and over focussed on head position.

The larger question is: does this horse need to start the journey to self carriage and collection and extension that occurs at Second level and above?

The answer is a loud It Depends.

First if you are riding this horse for a friend, then you ride how they tell you. You don’t go trying to school their horse in their absence and mess him up for the owner.

Second moving a horse into second level work requires some gas in the tank, and unless you can solve the impulsion problem here you will just make him more sucked back by riding on contact. But if you did get him forward, how will the owner like this? She may be terrified.

Third it sounds like you have some gymnastics tools that are getting the horse thinking about collection without hauling his face into a “frame” so yeah you’re ahead of this coach.

Fourth does any horse need to move up a level? On one hand any horse could benefit from this, on the other hand many dressage horses and almost all jumpers spend their lives at essentially First level and do just fine.

Fifth, barn trainer wants your business and will make negative or cryptic comments to try to unsettle you and make you come to them as your guru.

[Bogey2]

There is a difference in “frames” based on the level so I am not worried about the term. As you move up the levels the haunches go lower and the poll goes higher. That’s the basic. Google it and look for pictures of the “frame” at the different levels. It’s very interesting!

[dotneko]

Id prefer ‘second level balance’ or ‘second level carriage’, but ‘second level frame’ isnt terrible in my opinion. That being said, Im more concerned about doing 10 meter canter circles WITHOUT the above. Asking a less than balanced horse to execute a 10 m canter circle is abusing his good nature. Its like asking a second level horse to do a canter pirouette without giving him the tools for proper execution. So, maybe she was asking you to improve balance and engagement.

[Scribbler]

@dotneko

Id prefer ‘second level balance’ or ‘second level carriage’, but ‘second level frame’ isnt terrible in my opinion. That being said, Im more concerned about doing 10 meter canter circles WITHOUT the above. Asking a less than balanced horse to execute a 10 m canter circle is abusing his good nature. Its like asking a second level horse to do a canter pirouette without giving him the tools for proper execution. So, maybe she was asking you to improve balance and engagement.

This can be breed dependent. The handier breeds, Arabian and Iberian and some QH lines can do tight turns naturally that might be a life long effort for a WB or TB or draft.

[Rel6]

My dressage trainer will make comments frequently like “that is a first level 8 and a second level 7.” Generally, we’ve had conversations that to get his way of going more consistent for second level he needs to be a bit higher through his poll and withers, more consistently uphill in his self-carriage (transitions specifically), and overall just a touch steadier in the bridle.

I don’t plan to compete in dressage with him (we do mainly jumpers), just believe in the importance of cross-training, but I really appreciate hearing her talk about about the distinctions between what a judge is looking for at each level.

[Equibrit]

If he’s lacking impulsion, and you must have something to work on, try improving that He’ll need it for 2nd level.

[atlatl]

I think of frame as just the outline of the horse’s body; it’s not such a terrible word. As others have already said, it’s about how the horse is carrying itself and its balance.

Here’s the purpose for 1st level:

To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of
Training Level, has developed improved balance, lateral suppleness and throughness, as well as
the thrust to perform lengthenings of stride. The horse should be on the bit.

Here’s the purpose for 2nd level:

To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and now begins to accept more
weight on the hindquarters as the collected and medium gaits develop. A greater degree
of straightness, suppleness, throughness, and balance are required to perform the
movements with ease and self-carriage.

One of the instructors my group had in the L program had, IMO, a great way of describing how much collection was appropriate for each level: enough that the movements were easy.

[Einhorn]

I’m riding a rather sluggish horse, and what gets him more forward are many, many trot/walk transitions. Going from trot to a few steps of walk then back to trot helps get him forward and using his hindquarters. I try to do a really forward trot to walk transition.

I do lots of those, and by the time we start on other exercises, he’s moving with lots of impulsion.

[BigMama1]

My guess is that she means more uphill with more push from behind

[sophie]

Thank you everyone for your comments! They are in line with what I am thinking. Considering my fitness level and the way the horse’s owner rides him…I will keep asking for energy and balance and work more on MY performance in the saddle! haha.

@dotneko

That being said, Im more concerned about doing 10 meter canter circles WITHOUT the above. Asking a less than balanced horse to execute a 10 m canter circle is abusing his good nature.

This horse is balanced. He is a compact little Dutch WB. I’ve seen his owner do all sorts of gymnastics in her dressage lessons, including 10m circles, which is why I am including them. I am not changing much in his training regimen, except for trying to get him to be more reactive and engaged. I think his owner would be pleased with that, actually! I don’t think she has any intention of taking him to 2nd level.

The instructor whose comments I shared, is also this horse’s breeder, knows him inside out, and thinks he can /should improve his way of going…but I don’t think I am up to the task right now!!

[MapleBreeze]

Balance. The balance changes as you go up the levels. The balance changes during your ride too - from your warm up first level balance to end of the ride 3rd level balance.

[Cowgirl]

Exactly! There is no such thing as “frame”–I so hate this term–it is the level of balance that the horse can carry the rider in. I sososo HATE the push-pull that “frame” implies… As the horse’s strength increases through exercises that slowly increase in difficulty, the horse is more easily able to take weight on the haunches and carry the rider with an elevated forehand.