4 Wheel Vehicle & Brake Question...

[Chewbacca]

Kind of some sharing, kind of some questions…

I’ve been very lucky this last half of the year to be able to drive some “extra” horses. I can officially say, I’ve driven everything from minis to drafts. I swear I never thought I’d drive a draft! lol. In addition, I’ve also been able to access their owner’s large collection of 4 wheel vehicles, and have gotten my first experiences with driving a couple different 4 wheel carriages, which have features I am not used to, of course, since all I drive at home are MB’s and EE’s.

Leo the Haflinger and Dexter the Belgian are both 7, and both green. They both have their training issues, and their unique charms that make them who they are.

Here’s a pic of Leo in the vehicle he normally drives in, just a MB. He’s doing great every drive I get with him, better and better. He’s working now a little at a canter, which I can reasonably say that back when I first started working him, and he was so pushy and hard headed and even bolted with his regular handler AND had his singletree break during a drive (yikes!), neither of us thought he would competently handle cantering without bulldozing off. Leo’s not mean, but he sure can be naughty.

Annnnywho… the other day we cracked out a 4 wheel vehicle for Leo, and put him to it. I am 90% sure this is a courting buggy (?yes?)

So, this vehicle is obviously not cut under. During one very minor “Leo episode”, he tried to do a sharp turn/back , and one wheel popped up off the ground. With such a light vehicle, it’s no wonder how easy they can tip over !

Nothing happened.

I just wanted to ask- this is fairly normal right? For a vehicle like this without the cut under, I could life a wheel even in myself in hand, just pushing the shafts all the way over to one side.

I could not make it tip going backwards. Which my understanding is that a cut under vehicle CAN make super sharp forward turns, but cannot handle being pushed back & jack knifing. Yes?

Dexter’s normal driving vehicle is this:

Just a heavy metal training cart made by Tripe C out of Wisconsin.

A week or so ago, we hooked him to a wagonette…

Which leads me to my other questions. Leo nearly tipped this over when he was driven to it once earlier this year, during a “Leo episode”. (lol, two words I would not use to describe Leo would be bombproof or dead broke. sigh). Anyway, So that’s fairly typical for a cut under, including marathon vehicles, right? They can jackknife backwards, but can make the sharp forward turns, unlike that insanely lightweight courting buggy…

The other question I have is regarding brakes, because of course, the huge wagonette has them, and I’m not used to them. The only other time I ever drove a 4 wheel vehicle before this was a marathon carriage on a flat surface, so I never had to use the brakes.

I want to understand the brakes because I think I did something to the wagonette and killed it. sigh. Of course.

With brakes, you can push the pedal down just to slloooow the vehicle down, right? Just like a car? Yes?

The second time I played with Dexter & the wagonette, I played with the brakes a little more. I also had someone sit in the vehicle while I pulled it, so I could feel how it reacts when the brakes are applied. I did feel it slowing down vs. stopping completely when the pedal was put to the floor.

However, when I drove Dexter, and tried playing with the pedal myself just to get the feel of it, the rear left wheel starting making a metal on metal grinding sound and Dexter seemed to start struggling.

We unhitched him and put him back to his metal cart, and upon later inspection of the wagonette, we realized it seemed as though the brakes got locked up and were applied, even though the pedal was up.

So, wtf did I do to break this lady’s carriage?! lol!!!

Can someone explain brakes to me better, so I have a better understand of them when I do finally buy a marathon for myself.

I was playing with the brakes in the arena, before we went out into the hills so I could understand the pressure needed to slow vs. stop the vehicle.

Once we went back to the wagonette where we left it, I could not move it at all. I’m sure the brakes remained applied. So, pretty much, what did I do wrong? Is working the brakes as simple as a car’s brakes, or is there a trick to carriage brakes?

[Plainandtall]

I don’t think you broke the breaks… but they might need someone to check them out and work on them a little. That looks like a Robert’s wagonette- and when I had one- Its breaks were also kind of noisy and grindy (as was everything else on the vehicle) A trick if you ever have breaks lock up that sometimes works- is to go backwards to break the loose- I don’t know why that works.

As for normal use of normally functioning breaks- you only want to slow the carriage with them not to try to slow the horse with them.

If you ever get into carriage mechanics- and take one apart- or put one together- you will quickly develop a new appreciation of how these parts work. Sometimes just a really thorough washing and detailing will give you the opportunity to touch and think about each piece of the puzzle.

I think that the rules of breaking for modern welded marathon carriages may be a little different from the more antique designs.

As far as traditional pieces (Imagine the knee bone is connected to the leg bone) a common configuration- the back wheel is connected to the axle- the axle is connected to the leaf springs- the leaf springs are connected to the frame- the frame is also connected to the fifth wheel- the fifth wheel is held together with a king pin…the lower plate is connected to the springs… axle… shafts… singletree… etc.

Loading the breaks with more resistance can put stresses in different places than a simple “heavy load”.

Imagine if you took a giant three foot long wrench and fixed it on the axle of your carriage and cranked on it with all your might- as if you wanted to crack that axle off …

When you apply the breaks so hard as to prevent the wheel from turning around the axle at all… and you have a horse who is moving forward- in effect the spokes of your wheel + the traction on the road = a giant wrench torquing on your axle and all the parts holding everything together.

So you want the wheel to still turn at the speed of the horse- you are just taking the weight of the carriage off the horse by making it a little harder for the carriage to run up on him. This is for going down hills and stopping.

You should pay attention to your traces and britching to know if your horse is pulling or holding back.

[goodhors]

Couple terms come to mind that have different meanings. Cut-under ONLY means that the front wheels can get under the body for a shorter turn, than a vehicle with no cut under, like that Courting Buggy.

Having a fifth-wheel on a vehicle, means that the front wheels can do a total 180* turn under the front of the carriage if you didn’t have a horse attached. There is no blockage to prevent that kind of a turn. Fifth-wheel involves two metal plates, which fit together for turning the front wheels and axle as explained above. This vehicle would almost always be also cut-under, with the space for wheels under the Driver’s seat.

The difference between JUST cut-under and having a full fifth-wheel, is the fact that there is no “reach” from the front axle to the rear axle, holding them in place under the vehicle. Thus the full fifth-wheel is able to do a MUCH shorter turn with no chance of binding up the front wheels while doing that maneuver. The reach is found on most light 4-wheel antique vehicles, with or without a cut-under. The turntable holding the front wheels and axle on the vehicle, is limited in turning radius, when there is a reach involved in the design. It is a good design, allowing much lighter weight construction, less need for reinforcing to hold the heavier fifth-wheel turntable.

Most of the common buggy designs are made for going forward down the road, not so much for turning in a short radius, like town driving. They could be made LOTS cheaper this way, partial turntable, without the cut-under feature and using a reach for stabilizing the whole vehicle.

Plainandtall is correct about getting the brakes checked on the Wagonette and lots of other good information. If carriages have been stored a while, there is probably water in the brake fluid, along with air, so you have uneven braking and almost no pressure when you push the pedal. Brakes get water in the fluid just sitting around, should be checked before taking the vehicle out if it hasn’t been used in the last year. Probably needs total brake fluid draining done, put in new fluid, then bleed the air out of the brake system, so both wheels work together when the pedal is applied. Pedal should NOT be going to the floor, only about halfway down when things are right. Our car mechanic told us if the fluid looks at all milky, opaque, then it has water in it, needs changing. Should be clear, golden color on the old brakes if it has no water in it.

If this is truly a Roberts vehicle, I would call the company to find out what kind of brake system you are dealing with, and what kind of brake fluid it needs. The more modern European Marathon vehicles are often equipped with OLD (60’s-70’s) car brake systems, needing OLD style brake fluids. The new fluids will eat the rubber fittings and ruin the brakes. Can’t use old type fluid in newer brakes, again it will destroy gaskets, rubber fittings. Real important to know what you are dealing with, get the correct fluid for THIS vehicle. Some really light vehicles use motorcycle brakes!

Driving Digest did an article about caring for modern vehicles and their brake systems, and you might want to contact them to get a copy for the information. Mr. Quist, Dave I think, was the featured mechanic, maybe the writer, of the article. Covered a lot of ground, great details, for anyone working on such a vehicle.

I would strongly advise you to learn about greasing wheels, both old spindles with leather bearings and roller bearings on modern wheels, greasing turntables on buggies and the fifth-wheel modern types, so you don’t run into problems as you use these collected vehicles with the horses you drive. Again, ANYTHING sitting longer than a year really needs a full check over before hitching and driving it. You check for rusty bolts, loose bolts, WORN bolts, split wood, air (or lack of air) in pneumatic tires, axles with no grease in the hubs, all over both top and bottom of vehicles. This is for your SAFETY, you are not surprised with breakage or bad things happening when you go out Driving.

I also suggest you TIE or fasten any Parking Brake in the OPEN or OFF position, so it can’t get put ON and cause problems. Seen two vehicles with needing total brake job replacements because they drove miles and miles, day after day, with the parking brake on. They THOUGHT it was a horse problem, “he just gets so tired when we go out”, and really burned the brakes badly with heat build up! First thing we looked at was the parking brake, and it WAS on in both cases. Horse had a LOT more zip when the vehicle was repaired and they went out!!

An idea for a horse new to backing 4-wheels, is to stop on a little incline, then ask for backing up. Horse doesn’t have to push much, weight pulls it STRAIGHT backwards for him, so backing is easy and he gains confidence in doing it right, stays willing. Any 4-wheeler WILL fold quickly in backing if horse is the slightest bit crooked as he comes back. So it takes some time practicing, stopping and getting straight, backing again, to get good at it for you AND the equine. Usually the shorter the wheelbase, having big wheels, the faster it will fold on you. But practice will improve things on your ease in getting it right.

[Plainandtall]

Hey Goodhors- I’ve got a question for you- thinking about the various braking systems today- it struck me that the leverage forces from a braking system applied to the outside of a wheel (as a manual friction pad brake) and to the inside of the wheel- disc and drum… are totally different.

Is that so? Have you ever seen a write up about this difference? It seems that when they build larger vehicles like stagecoaches and hitch wagons- even today- they are built new with the old pad brakes- I’m thinking now that there may be a very good practical reason beyond tradition that keeps those manual brakes popular.

I do see some modern Stage builders have hydraulic as an option- but everything gets the manual brake standard.

[Chewbacca]

Thanks guys.

Yes, the brakes on the wagonette are extremely noisy and grind. One of Dexter’s little “quirks” is that he will jump forward away from his britchen. Heck, he does it even in hand once he’s harnessed and you’re walking him. When the brakes were being applied, Dexter definitely leaped! He was used as a baby to haul the Amish School Bus, I don’t know how they dealt with him leaping forward. With such a big horse, it can be a little unnerving. We’re working on it, and he’s getting better, but grinding the noisy brakes certainly don’t help!!! lol.

Thanks for confirming what I thought, GH, about the turning radius on the cut under vs. not cut under. I figured it was “normal” so to speak for the courting buggy wheel to pop up off the ground if pushed to the extreme. It just can’t take sharp turns. Definitely can see why that vehicle is for going down a quiet country lane. lol.

The wagonette is just a cut under. I have been around some marathon carriages enough to understand the difference you are talking about of the 5th wheel vs. just being cut under.

The horses’ managers said she is going to find the builder info on the wagonette and get the brakes serviced. The wagonette was used earlier this year, but it hasn’t really been used in probably ever, and probably never have been serviced.

Hopefully the brakes will get adjusted and we can get back it !

Thanks!

[goodhors]

We purchased that vehicle at Martin’s in the spring, had evidently been “redone” to fit the rules at FEI level for Pairs. We are about 99% sure of it’s history, who owned it and how it was redone, then let sit for about 10 years before the sale.

When husband went over the vehicle to check things, the brakes had NEVER been hooked up! The caps were still on the tubes for fluid, not screwed into the brake unit on the wheels. No fluid in the system. Well NO WONDER they didn’t work! Actually good for us, no corrosion, deterioration or rot in the rubber parts, so it was just put the parts together, fill with fluid, bleed out the air, and they were perfect to use.

We ALWAYS totally go over any new-to-us vehicle, or one that has not been used in a long time, because of problems we have seen happen in our past. Other folks don’t keep stuff up like we do, and we DO NOT want a preventable accident to happen to us.

[MunchingonHay]

squeaky brakes? Pour creamer on them. Or soured milk.