4 year old testing behavior?

[sativum]

I am a returning adult rider - did a lot of riding as a kid (hunter/jumpers), did some riding and lessons on and off as an adult, but started in earnest again last September when my 10 year old daughter wanted to start taking lessons.

We jumped in with both feet and bought a 3 year old anglo-arab mare in June (just turned four a couple of weeks ago). We board her at a barn with our wonderful trainer, so we do have guidance. She has an overall wonderful disposition - she can be a bit spooky at times, but has a really good head on her. We probably ride her 5 times per week - nothing intense at all, walking/trotting/hacking in the ring - with at least one off those rides being with a trainer on her, to help her get more balanced in her canter transitions.

Fall seemed to bring on a bit more spookiness - which I don’t think is unusual (we are in the northern US, so getting colder). However, over the past few weeks, she has been a bit pushier in her ground manners and under saddle (her ground manners have always needed some polishing). Little things - not wanting to stand at mounting block, not wanting to stand still in the cross-ties (today she dragged my down the aisle a bit as I was putting on her bridle), being pushier when being caught and released back in the pasture. She just seems a bit tense overall on the ground, quite honestly. I don’t think it is a saddle-fit/pain issue - she actually is quite relaxed under saddle (more so than on the ground) - although she did crow hop a bit when asked for some canter transitions over the past week.

I will keep looking out for signs of pain or discomfort - but is this potentially a typical baby horse development issue? I know there are lots of schools of thought on when to back a horse, and how much to ride them early on - could this be a sign of her getting overwhelmed? Or is she just testing her limits? getting comfortable at her new barn now that she has been there for 4 months?

She really is a sweetie, but I want to be sure we continue to move forward on a positive trajectory.

[Trekkie]

At this age–3-4 years old, most horses are going through major mental and physical developmental changes. They can easily become sore from growing and even too much light work–especially repetitive work. If she is testy on the ground, why not switch a couple of days of riding to ground work. Work on patience, respect and relaxation exercises. This will engage her brain without taxing her body. It will also help you both on the ground and under saddle with her. Sometimes 4 to 5 can be a tricky age as horses become more physically strong and confident in their bodies but have not yet developed a good work ethic. The key is to set her up for success and make it clear she has a job but not tax her so much physically she becomes sour and irritable. Don’t set an agenda before you ride-- wait and see what she feels like before you ask her to work for the day. Keep it short and positive and make it clear she gets a break for a job well done.

[comingback]

I have a four year old that most certainly is testing his boundaries at this time. I often look back at this old thread for some comfort that it is a phase…I hope.

Trials and Tribulations of training the 4 year old!!!

Just wanted others to join me in my happiness and misery! It can be so rewarding but so frustrating! I have an amazing 4 year old that has always been big, super leggy and slow to use common sense! He has the kindest heart, wants to please and is drop dead gorgeous but takes all of my patience! Going in a straight line and cantering more then one way around the arena is an issue right now ha ha. I know I am not the only one that is riding a baby and working through all the green momen…

[Lusoluv]

We have a lady at my barn who has a coming 5 yr old gelding. He is one of the sanest, sweetest “old souls” in a young horse body. That said, the woman treats him like a dog. Always feeding treats, hand grazing with no personal space boundaries. A few months ago he started little things, like nipping for treats, dragging her along on the lead rope, pinning ears at her when picking up his feet, etc. Me and her trainer (my friend) warned her that at this age, he is starting to know his own strength and she always backs off if he becomes pushy. We said she should hand graze him with a leadrope & chain since she doesn’t seem to be aware when he starts slowly pulling, tugging then dragging her around. She kept saying “he’s so sweet, he’d never hurt me - I don’t want to be mean”. Well, last week he broke her arm while I was grazing my horse some distance away. She was handgrazing, he tugged her, she just held onto the lead w/flat nylon halter, he jerked away and then cow-kicked at her head. In an instant she threw up her arm to block the blow. He nailed her forearm and she now has a plate in it. Young horses need guidance, boundaries and leadership. Not treats, excuses and coddling. I’ve learned the more you spoil horses, the more you’re telling them you’re not the herd leader, they are and so they’re on the lookout = spooking = dangerous behavior. She finally learned this lesson hard way and is now scared of her horse.

[StormyDay]

Yes, pretty much any horse goes though a phase of ‘oh crap I have to work now? Maybe I’ll be a little bratty’.
I’ve started adult horses that go through it. It’s always a mile marker to me that shows that the work is getting a little harder and so they think about maybe not behaving so they can get out of it. Push through, it too shall pass!

If it ever escalates, like really nasty behavior, then look for a pain issue. But those all sound just like a naughty horse testing to see what they can get away with.

[outside_leg]

It could be related to age, but since you mentioned the northern US, you may want to test for Lyme Disease. Spookiness can be a very common symptom, and we haven’t had a hard frost yet to kill off the ticks.

[skydy]

She may be having her last estrus of the year depending on where you live. Those can sometimes be difficult.

[Victorious]

I agree with all of the above posters. IME, as they gain confidence and knowledge…they also begin to push along the boundaries a bit. It will show up exactly like you described-dragging you somewhere while bridling, stepping away at the mounting block, taking longer for upward and downward transitions, etc etc. Patience, patience, patience is the key. Good luck!

[PonyPenny]

You are putting human emotions into your training which do not work. You need to be the boss mare. The horse needs to know you are in charge period. This does not mean overtraining, but insisting on compliance immediately when asked starting with ground manners. Horses thrive in a hierarchy system. Watch the dynamics in a herd environment. One horse will be the leader. You need to become that horse.

[S1969]

Who is riding the horse - you, your daughter, and the trainer? Or just you and the trainer? I agree that she sounds frustrated or overwhelmed. I might back off the riding and add some ground work in as others have suggested and/or limit the number of people who ride her (especially if your daughter is also riding.)

[FjordBCRF]

Very true to what @Lusoluv said, my 4 year old fjord is another sane sweet, “old soul” in a young horse body, but that only goes so far. If I hadn’t established boundaries on the ground, he would be a monster with treats though he only gets them from myself and a couple others that are allowed to treat him. He will nuzzle pockets but if he gets too pushy with that, he gets in trouble. And gets no treats.

Under saddle, we went through a stint a couple months ago where he learned that he could really take hold of the bit (regular snaffle) and just LAY on it. This evolved into ignoring it and one half *ss bucking fit that I rode out and he got VERY scolded for and then we worked a LOT more than planned. After that, and trying a slow twist bit for the arena, I had a new horse manners wise and he finally started to figure out playing and giving to the bit more.

Every now and then he will act too big for his britches but it’s generally not that bad given his disposition and it’s short lived. I have attributed it to him being so young. I also keep training rides short, 20-30 minutes to not burn his brain out. He is great on trails for a couple hours, but the arena gasses him out mentally and I get further faster with taking that type of training slow.

[sativum]

Me, my daughter, and the trainer all ride her.

I’m definitely going to back off on the riding and spend time on the ground with her. There is another pony I can ride, so backing off on her will not affect my saddle time. She is definitely on the sensitive side, and I think slow and steady, with lots of successes and praise, work well with her - shortening our rides I think will help as well. With winter coming, I think a few months of a more restful schedule will do her good. I’m hesitant to have the trainer (who usually rides her once a week) back off of her entirely - but she definitely seems to be the type of horse that does better with fewer riders.

[sativum]

That sounds like my girl! I’m definitely going to focus on shorter rides. I think that will be good for her.

[FjordBCRF]

@sativum The shorter rides really help a lot! Even if I do a couple weeks of just trails, we can jump right back into where we left off training wise and then it seems to click faster. We just have an outdoor where I am at (but 30+miles of trails) and once the fall leaves come in, we mostly trail ride then get back to the arena a bit more in November. The shorter rides are great for when we lose daylight as well and I may only have 20 mins of daylight! I like to try and keep him guessing; we don’t have a very routine routine other than I see him every day even if I am not riding and I try to work him in some capacity (trail/ground drive/schooling/ground work) 3-4 times a week.

For the first 6 months or so after I got him, I did a TON of groundwork with him too. I still do some, but not as much as I used to. That goes a long way for us too. I like groundwork type stuff though and I don’t know that everyone does. When I was younger and showed quarter horses, showmanship was one area I excelled in.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Bottom line: She’s young and green.

I learned the hard way that you should assess the situation and if you throw your leg over a young one and they snort or seem skittish, it’s time to perhaps get some of the kinks out first. As an amateur, I’m not going to put myself or horse at risk while trying to fight a battle with a 1200lb animal. Instead, it’s round pen or lunge for 10-15 mins, maybe a pro ride, and try again. Nothing wrong with recognizing that all the extra energy is still not unleashed and finding a safe way to let it go. For the young ones, it’s testing and it’s also not being able to communicate that their brain isn’t in it quite yet. Safety first.
Also, if she continues to be fresh, consider looking into what grain she’s getting. A lot of barns will feed performance feed or equine senior. The high test fuel might be too much for her at this juncture and you may want to supply a bag of something a bit more low-key as she ramps up to the level of requiring a performance horse feed.

[Haliburton]

@sativum

I’m hesitant to have the trainer (who usually rides her once a week) back off of her entirely - but she definitely seems to be the type of horse that does better with fewer riders.

I actually think the horse needs more training, but concerted methodical training and with the guidance of your trainer. Definitely tell your trainer what’s been going on, your trainer may or may not have guessed already (do we know if your trainer is having these same issues or is it isolated to when you handle the horse?).

Yes young horses are wiggly, have a hard time concentrating, haven’t learned much self-confidence, make mistakes, and don’t know enough about the world. And yes they will go through a phase of testing the boundaries more frequently. But these are all things that should be worked on every time they are handled so we don’t produce the dangerous behvaiour (bucking, bolting, kicking…as another poster mentioned let the horse drag you around one day and broken arm the next).

So by more training I don’t mean longer training sessions or drilling the horse to death. I mean methodical, planned, and progressing sessions that work with this horse’s brain/way of being. Sessions that teach the horse what a human’s expectations are and what the horses boundaries are (stand when mounted, don’t lean on the lead rope, yield to pressure, etc.).

Some of the methods may be counter intuitive, such as release the horse to the mounting block (when teaching to stand there should be no pressure from the human at the mounting block, which includes mounting btw). And this is where your trainer comes into play, as your trainer should be guiding you with what will work with your specific horse (is the horse fidgety at the mounting block to avoid work or because its mentally disconnected or because its scared/worried/anxious). This will also address your question on whether your mare is overwhelmed or testing the limits, its really impossible to know over the internet, but I am sure your trainer has some ideas on that.

But either with or without your trainers help this will be a learning journey for yourself as well, as we are essentially already “training” a horse every time we ride/handle them Fortunately horses are very elastic and pliable to teach new ways of doing things and behaving. Your horse may be regressing now, but with some adjustments in training method I’m sure she will learn to be a great citizen with great manners both on the ground and in the saddle.

So to summarize I guess, there is no easy “canned” solution to your questions, as we’d really need to see what the mare is doing. And as you already have a trainer working with the horse, some conversations/dialog with them would be a great place to start. However, based on some clues in your description I do think she needs more effective training to address the holes (pushy on ground, antsy at mounting block, spooking, crow hopping). And most likely a change in how you are handling/training her that is causing these holes.

[sativum]

Thank you for the encouragement! I’ve been talking to the trainer riding her, as well as the other trainers at the barn, quite a bit. She’s exhibiting the same behaviors with the trainer riding her - maybe even more so.

I took at lesson at another barn today that focuses on dressage on one of their school horses. It was wonderful to have a chance to have someone on the ground to focus on helping me with my seat. But it also was good perspective - both handling and riding another horse - how amazingly good my girl is (especially for her age) - I think sometimes in part, her typically awesome temperament makes me forget how young she is.

I am going into the winter season viewing this time as relaxed learning - lots of ground work, teachable moments, shorter training sessions, and slow progress (hopefully!) forward with the occasional (I’m sure!) detour.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and advice!

[S1969]

@Haliburton

I actually think the horse needs more training, but concerted methodical training and with the guidance of your trainer. Definitely tell your trainer what’s been going on, your trainer may or may not have guessed already (do we know if your trainer is having these same issues or is it isolated to when you handle the horse?).

I don’t disagree; I think having 3 different people at 3 different levels of riding might be contributing to the issues. I had this issue with my young mare when me and both my daughters rode her. She was very good for us all, but would prefer to revert to the “I trot on the rail, that’s it” mentality. She started becoming resistant to being asked to do the harder work, like moving laterally or collecting. And it probably wasn’t “resistant” but trying to respond to different cues - my 9 year old beginner rider definitely did not want lateral movement and was not asking for collection if she added rein contact - that was asking for a walk.

Our solution was to get another horse for the girls, and let my young horse be ridden more consistently between myself and the trainer.

@sativum

I’ve been talking to the trainer riding her, as well as the other trainers at the barn, quite a bit. She’s exhibiting the same behaviors with the trainer riding her - maybe even more so.

I took at lesson at another barn today that focuses on dressage on one of their school horses. It was wonderful to have a chance to have someone on the ground to focus on helping me with my seat.

So do you never have your trainer watch you ride your own horse? I definitely would want to have eyes on the ground for that - and I’d also want to watch the trainer ride her.

[sativum]

That’s interesting about being resistant to harder work with the three riders - that does seem to be some of the dynamic here.

There are multiple trainers at the barn. The one that is riding her now - I have had lessons with her on my horse, but not for a couple of months, and I haven’t seen her ride her recently - our schedules just don’t mesh up.

There is another trainer at the barn that I do take lessons with more regularly, and she has watched me ride her. She was just watching me this week - we were commenting about how nice and relaxed she was moving.

These conversations have been really helpful. I think it is a combo potentially of:

1. Young, green horse behavior
2. her being asked to work harder, compounded by multiple riders
3. My own issues with the canter transition, which we were spending more time on over the last month - e.g., I over-ride the canter transition with my leg cues, don’t ride enough from my seat, and am a bit fearful of the transition, thus giving her conflicting cues of if I really want to do it, and sometimes smacking her in the mouth

Thank you for the thoughts!

[Jackie_Cochran]

I remember reading in one of Margaret Cabell Self’s books that horses have an often total change of personality when the cold weather comes. She was based in Maine and ran a riding school, so she had lots of experience with the cold weather shenanigans of horses.

Your mare’s personality may have changed with the weather.

Go back to the basics, as near to the beginning of schooling as you can. Start going over ground manners as if she has never been trained how to act politely.

Realize that horses often explode in the ring because they are trying to get warm and warm up their muscles so they can do the work you want. Try to find a spot out of the cold wind when you work on her ground manners at first.

I also started with a young Anglo-Arab (5 years old gelding) with just green-broke training. Luckily my horse was an angel from heaven and forgave me my multitude of beginner’s mistakes.

Right now treat your mare as if she was a totally different horse, a horse that does not have the necessary training on the ground or under saddle. Look at it as a learning opportunity because you might be temporarily faced with this every fall and winter.