4h & rail classes in English or Western tack

[Kirikou]

I’m hoping to get some help understanding a perspective I keep running into at the local level.

In our county 4-H horse program (I’m in Iowa), English tack is not allowed in rail “performance” classes in my county only Western (or driving). The argument I hear most often from folks involved with the program is: “But if kids are showing in different tack, how would we judge them? English and Western are so different!”

But… are they really? At the heart of it, in a W/T pleasure class, we’re supposed to be evaluating things like rhythm, relaxation, quality of movement, manners, and way of going, right? Those should apply whether a horse is in a snaffle bridle and close contact saddle or a shank bit and western saddle?

I was talking to my farrier (a roper) the other day who was telling me about going to the event once known as Rolex while in farrier school in KY. He and a few of his buddies (roping/cutting guys) wandered over to the dressage warm-up just for fun. They apparently had so much fun watching and guessing which riders would score well. And sure enough, many of their picks did! They weren’t dressage riders, but they could still recognize softness, connection, balance, and correct movement when they saw it.

So if they can assess performance across disciplines at a high level like that… why can’t a judge watch a small group of 4-H kids jogging around the rail (some in English, some in Western) and still evaluate them fairly?

I’d love to hear thoughts from anyone who has worked through this in your county or state, or has experience judging mixed-tack classes. I know the Iowa 4-H rulebook allows for English tack, and that gymkhana/timed events at the state level allow any “safe tack” , but this mindset persists locally. And none of my lesson kiddos (in a rural area that loves the Fair) can participate…

Would love to hear your takes, especially if you’ve found language or reasoning that helps make the case for more inclusive rules at the grassroots level.

Thanks in advance!

[trubandloki]

@Kirikou

I’m hoping to get some help understanding a perspective I keep running into at the local level.

In our county 4-H horse program (I’m in Iowa), English tack is not allowed in rail “performance” classes in my county only Western (or driving). The argument I hear most often from folks involved with the program is: “But if kids are showing in different tack, how would we judge them? English and Western are so different!”

But… are they really? At the heart of it, in a W/T pleasure class, we’re supposed to be evaluating things like rhythm, relaxation, quality of movement, manners, and way of going, right? Those should apply whether a horse is in a snaffle bridle and close contact saddle or a shank bit and western saddle?

I was talking to my farrier (a roper) the other day who was telling me about going to the event once known as Rolex while in farrier school in KY. He and a few of his buddies (roping/cutting guys) wandered over to the dressage warm-up just for fun. They apparently had so much fun watching and guessing which riders would score well. And sure enough, many of their picks did! They weren’t dressage riders, but they could still recognize softness, connection, balance, and correct movement when they saw it.

So if they can assess performance across disciplines at a high level like that… why can’t a judge watch a small group of 4-H kids jogging around the rail (some in English, some in Western) and still evaluate them fairly?

I’d love to hear thoughts from anyone who has worked through this in your county or state, or has experience judging mixed-tack classes. I know the Iowa 4-H rulebook allows for English tack, and that gymkhana/timed events at the state level allow any “safe tack” , but this mindset persists locally. And none of my lesson kiddos (in a rural area that loves the Fair) can participate…

Would love to hear your takes, especially if you’ve found language or reasoning that helps make the case for more inclusive rules at the grassroots level.

Thanks in advance!

You will likely not change their mind without going up the 4-h food chain and having someone at the state level convince them they have to change.

Can you simple ask them to include English type classes in their show?
That is what 4-h does around here. Separate English and Western classes.

[Kirikou]

@trubandloki

Can you simple ask them to include English type classes in their show?
That is what 4-h does around here. Separate English and Western classes.

Yes, you are probably right!
They claim there wouldn’t be enough entries to justify adding English classes (but it’s a bit of a cycle: no English classes offered = no English riders = no English classes, etc…)

[trubandloki]

@Kirikou

@trubandloki

Can you simple ask them to include English type classes in their show?
That is what 4-h does around here. Separate English and Western classes.

Yes, you are probably right!
They claim there wouldn’t be enough entries to justify adding English classes (but it’s a bit of a cycle: no English classes offered = no English riders = no English classes, etc…)

Find someone to sponsor the English classes so it is worth it to them to offer them. If it is just your kids you can probably figure out just how many classes they have to have. Maybe you can talk some other lesson barns to join the English class fun.

Where I am, many of the kids do both English and Western rail classes.

[Kirikou]

Great idea, thanks @trubandloki!

[NoSuchPerson]

@Kirikou

They claim there wouldn’t be enough entries to justify adding English classes

I know of a situation where a couple of trainers got the management of a local show circuit to add another division by guaranteeing that they would deliver enough entries to fill the classes. You might try that.

[Luseride]

Our local saddle club mixes the two with no problems. Where there are problems is people in western tack using illegal equipment. It is supposed to be that they will be judged but placed under all riders with legal equipment. This is mostly over five with a snaffle or two hands on a shanked bit.

One solution is to possibly sponsor an English class or two to get the classes added.

You will get a lot of different responses. In Georgia we have a state horse show in June and you better be correct on everything. I have two going to Southern Regionals this week and the competition is stiff.

[poltroon]

I also would be fine with mixing the kids together but I agree that the easier path is very likely to ask for english classes and promise that they will be filled and/or sponsored.

Even though I think a combined class can be judged, even though you can ride horses well in any tack, there are some differences on actually… what the people who prefer different kinds of tack think quality of movement and relaxation is. It’s probably less trouble, and creates less… angst… if you just separate them. Ribbons are cheap in comparison.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I showed 4-H for several years, and yes, there is a huge difference between English and Western.

In my area (Midwest), the peanut rollers still reign supreme. We actually at one point separated “stock horse” and “non stock horse” into two separate divisions for both English and Western. Otherwise, the Arabians couldn’t get a fair shake. Neither could my lovely hunter-type Pinto mare.

There’s a big difference in how the two divisions view softness, cadence, rhythm, relaxation, and quality of movement.

[Paint_Party]

When I lived in California I judged 4H at the county level (Orange, San Diego and Ventura) and also for the state. I would not mix the two disciplines because that’s a mixed kettle o’ fish. Just think about the difference between a western jog and a hunter under saddle working trot. Plus, if and when the kids advance, they’re going to face more polished, specifically focused competitors. Getting a sponsor for your English classes is a great idea. Even if you only have 2 English riders, it’s a start. Of course you’ll have to split up the class list so they have time to swap tack and apparel if they do both English and western.

• Guess I should add that the only time I’ve seen a rail class successfully mix English and western is Country Pleasure where the horse performs at the walk and the rider’s “favorite gait.” As you can imagine, that class can create its own judging challenges.

[Foxglove]

Back in the Dark Ages I wanted Dressage offered at our 4-H Fair. No go. The Board said, " No one would ride in it."

So, I offered to do a presentation at horse camp, host a clinic (at the fairgrounds before the fair), loan dressage saddles, find the judge and scribe and sponsor the class at the “show before the fair.” .

I further provided the equipment (letter blocks) necessary for the class and the boarder chain. (White PVC).

The first year we had 15 riders --the next 30. As long as my kiddos and I were in the club, it was a strong program and became a fair class, although held the day before the fair opened.

I don’t know if it is still going. My interest and participation ended when my grandkid aged out.

So, if you want it, make it happen.

Grand kid showing our Percheron in the rain at the fair in Dressage:

[red_mares]

I’ve never been to a small show where there was any appreciable difference between western riding and english riding. There should be, but there’s not. The tack may be different, but the way of going is the same. I recall one show where they had a “saddleseat” class where the entries showed in hunter tack and apparel. WTF? I made a comment to whomever I was standing next to and the answer was “they are just giving the kids another class to show in.” As the person with the only Saddlebred on the grounds, my answer wasn’t PC.

Anyway, if you really want english classes sponsor them. Any trainer that actually shows up knows that the WP judge is going to pin the EP class the same way. There’s a couple small open shows my barn does. We’ve made comments that we probably should bring the lame school horse because that’s what the QH judge pins. It is what is, and it’s made clear to all the kids before they get to the grounds.

[red_mares]

I forgot if you get classes added, the announcer can be just as problematic as the judge. Be prepared for a lope and a jog to be called for instead of a trot and a canter in your english class. When I took the road pony to the open show in the spring, they called for some weird stuff. I think they asked for a walk. ??? (RPs do a jog, road gait, & speed) Since I was the only one in the ring, I ignored them and did what they were supposed to ask for.

The show manager was on the rail shaking her head in frustration.

[Buddy0227]

Here in New England 4H and many large open shows will have English and Western riders in the same class. riders are asked to trot or jog and canter or lope. No real issues, but kids learn real quick what a red ribbon in the tail means !

[Calvincrowe]

Back in the dark ages of the 1970s, I was the ONLY English rider/competitor in 4H in my senior years. We were all mixed together. What it comes down to is the judge themselves, using correct criteria: there is a distinct difference in the proper way of going for English and western disciplines and they judge based on that. I think your best bet is to go up the food chain, offer a sponsor and enough kids to fill the class(es) and hope for the best.

Showmanship was fun-- me and my 17H TB mare in full hunt attire complete with rust breeches, in a bridle (as per regulations) vs every type and size of horse imaginable in halters and leads. I stood out. A lot.

[red_mares]

We stuck around for the afternoon of the open show and saw the in hand trail class. Next time, my Hackney is doing it. We took a couple horses through, goofing around and the Hackney “jog” on a lead shank is something to see. Only problem he had was the ground poles. They weren’t set for his little legs…he also didn’t look at the ground.

[Montanas_Girl]

I have personally judged many, many classes of combined “types”, including western, ranch, hunter, saddleseat, and even gaited horses. At that level, I’m largely judging on safety - style is a tiebreaker at best. It’s never been a problem for me to judge each horse against the ideal for its type. A good announcer should call gaits exactly as the judge instructs, not modify the announcements. In these kinds of classes, the usual gait call is walk and “favorite gait” - plus canter, of course, if the class specs call for it.

It sounds like, at your shows, you’ll have more success offering to sponsor a few classes to get them added, since the management is not receptive to having your kids show with the western ones.