4yr old attitude - did your horse's disposition change?

[Corky]

So I am at a cross roads and I can’t decide where to go. Do I sell the homebred, what is supposed to be my ‘forever, unlimited’ horse or do I stick it out and reap what I’ve sown? She’s better quality than I could ever afford to buy.

I have the most lovely 4yr old, my first/only homebred of my wonderful mare. I had the dam for years before I bred her, and put her to a stallion I’ve known for decades. It was a very well planned, thoughtful breeding and she is a very good quality, registered and inspected warmblood 4yr old who’s had all the best.

I always planned to back her myself, but life happens, and I used a local pro in the fall of her 3yr old year. She was backed lightly, uneventful, and I brought her home and rode her lightly, also uneventful for a few months then put her out for the winter. Handling, but no riding. Got same pro to help me restart late spring, going fine. Then she started to put me off. I got hurt enough I couldn’t ride, so pro rides for a solid 6 weeks or so and mare is going very nicely. Still very green, but forward is coming along well, she’s not spooky and she’s had some lessons but no drama to speak of. I start taking over riding again and its been 2-3 weeks of pro riding a bit, me riding a bit, and she was a bit nappy on Tuesday and bucked me clean off when I tried to correct her. This is her second time pitching me in a dirty manner. It wasn’t baby play, it was dirty. Pro hasn’t had any ditching attempts. Pro is also a fitter, stronger rider than I am. Technically I am very capable and have started many horses, but fulltime job and life have resulted in me getting a bit pudgy and out of shape. I can ride my other mare fine, but this 4yr old is a huge mover and I struggle with my core strength and balance on her. She’s a nappy thing and requires a ton of motivation to get her out in front of your leg. Conversely, her dam is opinionated but very generous to ride. I owned the dam as a 4yr old and fondly remember how much I loved her because I could feel her learning and trying every ride. She has been dramatic in her life, but never dirty. Ever. Her child is agreeable on the ground, excellent ground work, fine on the lunge, but so nappy to ride. Between her putting me off and how much work she is to ride, well, I don’t want to ride her.
Her dam has some soundness issues. She’ll never be a fully working horse again. Currently we are waiting to see results of some recent treatments. Its unclear if she’ll do wtc and jumps again, or if she’ll be a low level dressage and hack horse. I won’t sell this horse. She’s 11.

I bred this 4yr old to be my horse with no limits. If I wanted to progress in dressage or jumping, I wanted this 4yr old to have the ability to do it. I’m not talking grand prix, but I wanted to know I had the horse that I wasn’t going to top out. Since I bred her, life has changed and I work a rather stressful fulltime job and have far greater draws on my personal time than I used to. I still want to ride well and do more than just happy hacking. Showing isn’t necessarily what I want, but I want the option. Ideally, I’d like to be doing 1st/2nd level dressage and 1m jumper courses, for example. The dam may not have the soundness for this. Every time I ride the dam I think ‘gosh I like her’.

Do I bank that the ‘make me’ attitude this 4yr old is currently displaying is a phase that she outgrows? Or do I cut my losses and sell while the market is screaming-hot and invest everything into getting the dam to the best possible place she can get to and then maintain her, even if its at a level below where I’d like to be? I don’t have the funds for fulltime training on the 4yr old and fully pursing all treatment options on the dam. I feel like I’ve been doing each half-way to this point and I don’t feel like its working. I hate the idea of giving up on a 5yr investment because I’ve been pitched a few times. It sounds so defeatist and that’s not me. But I also don’t want a big, powerful, huge moving WB with a nappy attitude that I don’t actually want to ride. And I’m sick of living on pain killers after hitting the ground. Work is stressful and emotionally taxing, personal life has all kind of adult requirements that pull me multiple directions, and I feel like I need to commit to something with these horses because how I’m going along now isn’t working. Something has got to give and sadly, the horses are the thing that are 100% in my control.
Has anyone else been here with a young horse? What did you do? How did you decide?

[luvmyhackney]

Sell the damn horse if it doesn’t make you happy to ride. Life is way to short.

[Tarlo_Farm]

It sounds like she’s got your number. You’re not having fun. You can’t afford full-time training, your life has taking a different turn at the moment…sell her to someone who is a better fit.

[Paint_Party]

My mom, sister and I bred horses for many years. Several of the mares were our show mares that we loved. We bred to the best stallions we could, had the foals inspected at keurings and figured they’d match or exceed what their dams had done.

But then genetics happen. And life. And we all got older while our horses kept getting younger and greener!

I guess what I’m saying is that young horses are going to be the creatures they were destined to be, albeit proper training and care can enhance or diminish those proclivities. Despite your plans, the 4-year-old doesn’t sound like it’s the proper mount for you. Sell it to a more suitable home, be content that you bred a nice horse, and use the money to get something that works for you at this stage of your life.

[beowulf]

It really depends… do you think this nappy behavior is genetic? Did the mare or the stallion present attitudes like that at a similar age?

What you describe I would not chalk up to young behavior. It’s normal for some boundary testing and normal for some “I dun wanna” among babies – but it isn’t normal to buck riders off or be an absolute pill to ride. If neither parents were like this, I’d wonder if there’s something physically bothering her.

I don’t find age is typically a reliable indicator of behavior, though I have had very good, sane 4 y/os. Usually it was when they were fitter and stronger that they began to “talk back”.

You don’t enjoy riding her. If you think it might be physical, involve a vet… otherwise, I think its time to sell her and buy something just as nice without the 'tude. Life is too short to not enjoy your rides.

I am at the age and point in my riding career where the horses that deliberately buck off their rider hold zero appeal to me. Once is fine. Twice is a pattern and I don’t stick around for the third. Either she has your number or she’s hurting somewhere; if it’s the former and you love her, have a pro work with you while you ride her so you can develop the tools you need to grind that behavior out.

[lenapesadie]

Did my horse’s disposition change? No. He’s the same basic character at 9 as he was at birth.

Dirty buckets gotta go at my house. I’m too old and wimpy for that mess.

[candyappy]

The fact that she doesn’t do it with the trainer but has now done it with you twice makes me think that there is something about your riding that she definitely objects strongly to.

I don’t think it is normal for a young horse to suddenly start dumping their riders. I have started many horses in my years of riding and have never encountered it ( very thankful).

If you don’t like her or feel you just are not a good match then sell her and find a horse who is. I personally wouldn’t throw a ton of money into the older mare in hopes of maybe she will respond-- when you can put that into a new horse that is sound now.

[Piaffe11]

My mare has definitely “grown up” a lot between 4 and 6, but she still has an underlying attitude to test every boundary she has. Definitely more with me then with the guy that trains her. I swear she knows when he’s away and she amps up her testing each ride.

I get it not being fun. One thing that has actually really helped me was my dressage coach giving me a couple of tips on how to keep ahead of her, so we don’t get to a point where she is testing me or if we do, I “win” quickly and she goes back to work. I have back problems and she’s 17.3, so I have to out maneuver her.

Is your trainer able to offer any insight watching you ride your mare as to what sets her off? Or tell you what she does if the mare starts feeling nappy? Something that you can use to keep ahead of her? It may help you get over this hump.

[EmilyM]

I would sell her while the market is hot. Invest the money for a year and go buy a 6 year old doing stuff

[SuzieQNutter]

Do not hop on again. You have learned that you cannot stay on her. She has learned that she can get you off. Next time it might be a life long injury. Do not take the risk.

[Corky]

To all of you who took the time to read and respond - thank you! Even by the time I finished the post I was seeing ‘sell’ in lights. Having a bunch of people with no skin in the game agree helps.

I spoke with my trainer tonight and gave her first dibs. She will discuss the option to buy with her partner and if she opts out, then we’ll look at consignment. I have asked another local pro who is familiar with this caliber of horse to give me an appraisal as well. The market in my area is wild right now so I figured it was worth paying for an appraisal so I have two pros weighing in on pricing.

[Equkelly]

@Corky

she was a bit nappy on Tuesday and bucked me clean off when I tried to correct her.

What exactly do you mean by “nappy” and what exactly was the “correction”?

@Corky

This is her second time pitching me in a dirty manner. It wasn’t baby play, it was dirty

Can you describe exactly what happened?

@Corky

Her child is agreeable on the ground, excellent ground work, fine on the lunge, but so nappy to ride. Between her putting me off and how much work she is to ride, well, I don’t want to ride her.

I personally don’t believe in describing equine behavior as “opinionated” or “nappy”… I think they’re anthropomorphisms. I think something is going on where there’s a disconnect between you and her. I don’t believe horses ever try to buck us off just for no reason at all.

I think it’s likely that she’s uncomfortable about something. Sometimes the “suck it up buttercup” training philosophy works and sometimes it doesn’t. I think if you have a horse that’s a little sensitive and a little insecure, you do kind of have to change how you do things but if you’re unwilling I’d just sell.

I think training youngsters just shouldn’t sound so much like a battle and that’s kind of what it sounds like is going on.

[cheektwocheek]

I personally think they all go through naughty baby brain behavior sometime between 4-6. Some have devious thoughts, some just discover this feels too much like work.

Life is too short to be unhappy/hurt with the wrong partner, get her into a situation where she can thrive. Too much exuberance for you, might mean a great eventer project for someone else. They don’t always fit into the mold we choose for them. Good luck!

[Bluey]

Consider:

[bingbingbing]

@Corky

Between her putting me off and how much work she is to ride, well, I don’t want to ride her.

I think selling her is probably best. Unless you are very attached to her and want to figure out why she is bucking and “nappy”.

@Corky

4yr old is a huge mover and I struggle with my core strength and balance on her. She’s a nappy thing and requires a ton of motivation to get her out in front of your leg.

Your quote may indicate a young horse not comfortable with an unbalanced rider or maybe an unbalanced rider with a saddle that doesn’t fit properly. The lack of desire to go forward could be an indication of pain somewhere. Is she “nappy” with the trainer? I know plenty of professionals who can get a horse in pain to go around when an ammy can’t. Do you both rider her in the same saddle?
I’d look into the usual: ulcers, saddle fit, pain. If I missed this being done, I apologize. But you sound like you are done with her, and that is completely understandable.

[cayuse]

Yes, I had one. He was also very nappy and would get upset when asked to move forward. Started at about 4. I had two trainers work with him and neither one made much progress with him or really liked him. He ended up as a companion horse who was ridden once in awhile on trails and that was a good fit for him, everyone loved him and he was like a different horse.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I know you’ve decided to pursue selling her, but I think the posters who said it’s your riding are onto something. An out of shape rider on a green horse is a recipe for disaster. They need you to help them. They need you to be balanced and light, because they aren’t.

That said, I knew a horse almost exactly like yours. Bred for the same reasons. Sire was the kindest horse I ever met. Dam could be opinionated, but fair. The resulting foal was huge, and knew it. He went to 3 professional trainers, who had no problem with him, but once home, he reverted to dangerous behavior. As far as I know, he never grew out of it, and I knew him for 7 years.

[Texarkana]

OP, your story sounded really similar to my horse. She was the easiest foal and young horse ever until she was 4 years old, when we entered a spiral of problems.

I am trying to spare you the novel of how it went.

But long story short:

I wasted a lot of years being scared of my horse because she was trying to tell me she was uncomfortable in her tack. I don’t just mean saddle fit: she is sensitive to every piece of tack you put on her and will be psychotic if you keep forcing it upon her.

Now, I doubt that’s your horse’s problem, too. My horse is a weirdo. But their bodies change a lot at 4, so before you chock it up to attitude changing, you may want to evaluate everything with a fine tooth comb. I thought I had done that, but clearly I missed a lot of sources of discomfort, like the bit style.

I wish I could get those bad years I spent intimidated by my horse back again.

[EventingMaff]

I feel like most young horses I know (including my own) go through a frustrating phase between 4-6. Not necessarily for the whole time…but they all seem to go through. And honestly, 5 year old mares seem to be the worst offenders.

Sometimes it’s that their bodies are growing / changing impacting their balance, sometimes it’s that they get fitter and stronger and realize they can express their opinions about this whole “work” thing, sometimes it’s that they are physically uncomfortable.

My own mare went through it - we figured out (eventually) that hers was due to physical discomfort. Once remedied though there were residual behaviors she’d learned - such as bucking - that she’d turn to when asked to do something she felt was too challenging. She requires a sensitive rider that doesn’t escalate into battling her but instead diffuses her resistance rather than resisting back. At this point she’s 6, she rarely bucks any more and her resistance is becoming less and less frequent. I expect in a few years she’ll make a lovely horse that would be trustworthy with an intermediate rider, as she has a great temperament. But right now, she still needs a deft rider that can navigate her “teenager-ness” as she’ll happily seize any obvious opportunity to test boundaries.

If you aren’t enjoying this phase with her and you don’t have the funds to have enough pro-support to help navigate out of this phase, I’d sell while the market is hot and buy a horse that is already going reliably at the level you want to do for the discipline(s) you want to do. While it’s likely she’ll come out the other side of the 4-6 year old headaches…there’s no guarantee and she may always be a tricky ride. Sounds like you know what you want in a horse, so go find it with certainty rather than gambling on this horse that you don’t enjoy in the meantime.