$500 just to look? WTF?

]

Wait wait wait, no one’s ACCUSING them of criminal conduct. They’ve admitted to the criminal conduct themselves! They simply omit the fact that is in fact illegal. No one’s accusing them of altering Coggins tests, the site verifies it! People on this thread are simply stating that that (which they’ve admitted to) is illegal. Which is the truth.

VSH is by what they’ve put in their own website, illegal, unethical, and seemingly targeted towards inexperienced and uneducated horse buyers who don’t know enough to figure that out. If that isn’t the case, then why is it on their website?

If people who were considering buying a horse from this place read this thread, become a bit more educated about their business practice as compared to that of most other horse sellers/dealers, and then decide to look for a horse elsewhere, how is that our fault? People here are simply stating the obvious. Plus, if someone is just going to listen to a bunch of random people on the Internet rather than forming their own opinions, well, if VSH cares as much about their horses as they claim to, they don’t want the horse with that person anyway.

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Sorry - didn’t want anyone to think I am representing this woman as her attorney. I am not her attorney.

Shame on us for voicing opinions on someone’s sales tactics? I don’t think so.

I can’t believe that an altered coggins would fly at all when it comes to trying to bring that horse up across the border (not that I’d go to Virginia to buy a Canadian bred horse–there are still plenty here to choose from!) and I’d have my doubts that it would even be sufficient if someone were stopped for a routine check while hauling across the US–some/most states require current coggins for any horse being transported anywhere, do they not?

As others have already said, if the seller doesn’t want a buyer to find out any past owner history off of the coggins certificate than she should simply pay to have a new one done, and that way all the paperwork would show her name. To avoid the extra charge & simply alter the old certificate is IMO…CHEAP.

No - Shame on ALL of you for grinding this person’s reputation into the dirt - without knowing ANYTHING about what she is doing. How dare all of you hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet to ruin this person’s business - FOR FUN.

Shame on you - and shame on the Chronicle for allowing it.

J Swan, did someone die and declare you moderator and I missed it?

Didn’t think so.

Funny how no one ever complains the numerous times websites are posted here in a complimentary way. As soon as it’s UNcomplimentary, suddenly it’s a different story.

When you publish material on the WORLD WIDE web, it is assumed that it is for the public to read. You can’t control how the public responds to it.

No one has launched a malicious denial of service attack against the website’s servers. No one has suggested doing any harm to this woman or her facility. No one has done anything other than express an opinion. Last I checked, that was protected free speech… even if it is not a complimentary opinion, and even if it results in someone losing business. If that were libel, Roger Ebert would have been out of a job a long time ago.

Hey – I haven’t posted on this thread, but I think you are getting things wrong here. People posting here don’t know and haven’t written about what “she is doing” – they have written about what she says on her public, intended-to-generate-business website. The discussion on this thread has been confined to things this person posted about her own business on her website. If a discussion of information this person gave out freely, willingly, and as a part of her sales technique ruins her business – well, perhaps the problem is on her side. Libel has to be false. Disagreeing with – even mocking – someone’s business model may be meanspirited but it sure isn’t illegal. --Jess

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No, Erin - but this has crossed the line as this woman’s business has been seriously harmed by unsupported allegations of criminal activity, fradulent business practices - and she has LOST BUSINESS because of the allegations on this BB.

I don’t give a damn about your status as moderator - but the Chronicles name is behind this BB - and I expect better from the good folks that run this respected publication.

edit

The thread has been up for three days – including the start of a holiday weekend, when many people are on vacation rather than horse shopping. So how, exactly, do you or the owner of the business know that she has “LOST BUSINESS because of the allegations on this BB?”

(In addition to the whole bit where the topic of discussion was information that VHS deliberately put out on the internet…)

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So, this woman admitting to what is a criminal activity on her website isn’t enough support?

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Because I live in the area and know a lot of people, and I also know other aspects to this little drama that would make some of you feel ashamed of yourselves for ever posting.

I’m sorry I ever took a look at this thread. If y’all knew what you have done - you’d be sick. Free speech has its limits.

If she has lost business, it’s because of what was SHE WROTE ON HER OWN WEBSITE.

It is not my job to prevent people from discussing things that might make others look bad. As long as the subject matter is documented fact, and as long as the discussion is civil, it is allowed.

Unless you are going to claim someone hacked into her website and made up policies that are not hers, there is absolutely no reason that those policies should not be discussed here. And if she considers the discussion of her policies bad for her business… well, perhaps she should consider this a free marketing critique, because it’s her policies and practices that are at fault, not the discussion of them.

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  1. I haven’t done anything – my only posts on this thread have been responses to YOU, not comments about the original topic.

  2. You are right – free speech does have limits, which are carefully defined by the courts. And this thread doesn’t get near them.

The moral highgrounds is not just yours for the taking. :no: --Jess

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you know…

if i were her, and i felt that this post were affecting my business, i think that i would come here and invite the people on this board to elect a couple of people willing to come out to my farm, invited, to see how things were ran, and how i practiced business. i can understand why she might not want 20 people coming, and wouldn’t want to spend days showing people around, but honestly, just two coming out to see things, thats something i definately would allow. especially, if i felt fully comfortable about the care of my horses and my policies (and, as a business woman in the horse industry, i do)
just a thought anyhow :slight_smile:

J Swan, I am wondering why you are so vehement in your attack on the posters here when they have been issuing OPINIONS.

You cannot sue for opinions. As many have said, they have been commenting on the actual wording of this woman’s own website copy. I find it interesting that she has removed much of the “offending” wording AFTER these posts.

I don’t think anyone here truly is meaning harm to her or her business. But, it is a fact that she has misrepresented breeds and offered to alter Coggins certificates. This is questionable business practice. As a practical matter, she may (and you may) decry the effect of these BB postings, but if it is truly causing her problems then she should stop and ask herself why.

It is also very possible that whoever this woman is did not write this website copy HERSELF. I bring up this possibility because many businesses will have “professional copywriters” do their websites. Or perhaps family or friends wrote it… picture someone who is possibly an MBA businessperson who was given various things to say and put it in MBAspeak not understanding how horse people operate? Perhaps she did not oversee the job properly and it was written badly in some areas. I only offer this as a possibility to give SOME kind of benefit of the doubt as things like this do happen to business owners.

Regardless of whether or not “in real life” she is a reputable and honest businesswoman, I cannot imagine that you as an experienced horsewoman yourself would read the copy and rules and remarks made on her website and NOT see that something is a bit wrong there? I ask you, J Swan, do YOU agree with her “policies” as originally stated on that site?

Personally, I think that if she (and you) feel that she’s been truly harmed by the comments here at the COTH BB that perhaps a PROPER dialog and communication between the parties is more called for than some attempt at legal action. I am not familar with YOUR state laws specifically, but in general she really has to cause for action at this point. She can write letters and raise a stink, but what does that solve?

One thing also: you yourself have not truly answered what YOU think of her website policies (as originally posted before things were removed)? Since you apparently know her, can you tell me what is GOOD about her horse sales business and what you AGREE with in her business practices? It again may all come down to what is acceptable to some is not acceptable to others. Voicing disagreement or criticism is NOT an actionable legal cause. She is quite free to voice HER disagreement with COTH BB, as you have done. I respect your right to disagree with this thread, and I repeat, I honestly would like your specific opinions as to why you think she’s in the right?

Overall, let’s let cooler heads prevail here. You are championing her cause and others here are questioning her techniques and policies. If it is merely a case of poor verbal/written communications on her website, then she’s only “guilty” of not seeing how her “style” may be offensive, confusing and/or misleading vis a vis the reality of her practices. And, if that’s the case, we should know that before vilifying the woman. If it’s not, and her comments, policies and practices are as it seemed, then she needs to review why others who see in print what she “does” are not happy with it all.

Again, J Swan, I am not trying to pick any fights with you personally… I do not live there and so am not privvy to the local business climate or who is who. I truly want to understand what YOU understand as the reality there in this matter. Remember that adjudication often works much better than going to trial. Thanks for listening. :slight_smile:

I said y’all - not you specifically.

True - the moral high ground isn’t mine - in fact, I never have the high ground according to the anti-slaughter folks - they have put down roots and cannot be budged - so please - ask them to move over so I can have it once in a while…

Hmmmm - maybe I just don’t like seeing a person’s life destroyed by a bunch of strangers on the Net getting their rocks off. Why not give her a call?

Her website does have contact info - instead of tearing this person apart and ruining her business by falsehoods, mean spiritedness, harassment, and threats (you know who you are) - why not simply call and ask?

Is it necessary to ruin lives instead of picking up the phone and calling someone? I guess it’s more fun if you’re a sicko - but seriously - if I disagreed with something I’d just pick up the phone and ask. It’s not difficult - and it certainly harms no reputation, puts no one in fear, and ruins no one in the process.

Free speech has not been carefully defined by the Courts in relation to the Internet. In fact - the courts are now full with cases just like this - new law - settled law is being reinterpreted in light of this technology - and very very often favorably for the plaintiff.

And lets not forget tortuious interference…

edited to add - this thread is not about me - my opinion on this business is completely beside the point. I couldn’t pick this person out of a lineup.

Like I said - instead of ruining this person -on purpose - why not pick up the phone and verify for yourself? Do y’all have no discretion? Fingers? Telephone?

So are you saying that we are not allowed to critique or voice our dislike of someone else’s website and business policy? Our opinions are protected by freedom of speech.

It sounds like you are protesting the fact that people have voiced their opinions to the extent that it has “hurt” her business. Are we supposed to somehow know at what point she starts losing customers because of what has been said on this BB, and then just intuitively stop talking? Do we owe it to her to not voice our opinions so that she can make her money? If I started a lemonade stand, and my lemonade was disgusting, should people just keep mum and allow others to waste their money on my product so that my business won’t suffer?

Alternatively:
When movies come out in theaters, the public has the right to write reviews about them. People read these reviews, and when the reviews are bad a movie’s box office revenue suffers. Can Walt Disney sue the publications that write bad reviews of his movies?

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Actually - I suggest you purchase a hornbook on this subject, or attend some law classes, or even consult a business attorney.

Free speech is a blanket term - but it does have limits - and those limits differ on the subject matter.

This isn’t a Disney movie review. It is not benign.

Get your jollies if you want - continue to harass this person and ruin her life.

Then keep on going and going until someone with enough money to hire the right attorney sues COTH, forces the closure of this website, or sues a poster directly through COTH, or advertisers and subscribers take their business elsewhere - because eventually the wrong person will get ticked off.

Keep on going - I don’t much care, really. I don’t stand to lose anything.

J Swan, just curious since you didn’t actually respond to my questions but wrote:

"Free speech has not been carefully defined by the Courts in relation to the Internet. In fact - the courts are now full with cases just like this - new law - settled law is being reinterpreted in light of this technology - and very very often favorably for the plaintiff.

And lets not forget tortuious interference…"

Are you an attorney?

J Swan, IIRC, several people HAVE contacted her. Several sent emails, which, if her business is primarily web-based, as you’ve indicated, one would assume to be her preferred method of communication. None of those who have contacted her have reported getting a response.

Hey, for all we know the woman may be a saint, but from the information she has set forth on her own website, she does not leave anyone unacquainted her with a positive impression. To require $500 --wire transfer, I thought – before setting foot on her property, and to require her very own boarders to prearrange visits to see their own horses doesn’t leave anyone with a good impression of her or her organization. I’ve never, ever heard of a boarding facility that required advance notification of a visit, unless it was after hours.

If you have a business that is dependant on working with the public, it’s crucial to present yourself in an approachable and professional manner. She’s fallen short there. Maybe she got really bad advice from someone. Who knows. I don’t see a discussion of her own published practices as a bad thing. If anything she has gotten invaluable feedback from potential customers.