$500 just to look? WTF?

[Seafilly]

Personally, No, I would not bother to call - the website was offensive enough and told me far more than I’d ever want to know about this business. As soon as I got to the offensive paragraph about 40+ women who have had children, I was appalled. Can women who fit the description go after her for age/weight discrimination? I mean, really, that was a hurtful and insulting thing to say, and even if I don’t personally fit the description (other than being nearly 50, mother of two, and not being able to fit into my high-school clothing nowadays - nothing close to her snippy characterization), I was embarrassed that any horseperson - especially a horseWOMAN - would resort to such a nasty public and published comment. No one has hurt her business more than her own words. Do you not see that? If you support such language and policies, all I can say is, wow, I had a different impression from your previous writings. If our comments caused her to take down the offensive parts of her public website, then perhaps it has done her a favor…for free. JMHO.

Deb
(P.S. - if you want my personal details, just ask…frankly, your profile is fairly “anonymous” too, for all the talk about “hiding behind an internet ID” or whatever was said in that regard. I discourage my teens from posting their full names and addresses online as well.)

[Waterwitch]

@Erin

Tell me, J Swan, how would you feel if I deleted your posts criticizing the anti-slaughter crowd because you were hurting their cause, and because they are good people, and because you don’t know the WHOLE STORY about what they’re doing? Because your comments are ruining their lives, donchaknow.

Guess what… I’ve never met Paris Hilton, nor spoken to her in person, and I think she’s a trashy, talentless, spoiled brat. And I’m completely entitled to that opinion, and to express it, without calling her up personally to find out if that’s really the case.

An opinion is not right or wrong – it is simply an opinion.

Thank you Erin! That was exactly the point I was going to make. I guess the right to free speech depends on who it is doing the speaking, huh?!

[JSwan]

I was referring to the anti-slaughter folks - I keep things strictly on the BB - unforgivable to ferret out their private lives and stalk them or publish directions to their house, call and harass people, etc.

Hmmm - we’re supposed to alert moderators - you told me that. I alerted you. Am I supposed to alert you or not? If we see a post we think violates the rules - we’re supposed to do something. In 6 years - I’ve done that how often?

Geez - that comment on the dressage forum was tame - and I don’t recall you stepping in when people like me were subjected to far worse. But hey - it’s the dressage forum - those ladies play rough! I can take it in small doses.

Like I said before - go back to the previous discussion - sorry to ruin the “fun”.

@Erin

No need to find out where they live … it’s posted on their website.

Sending a few emails is not harrassment. If that were the case, I’d say you’ve been harrassing ME this afternoon.

True, that’s not particularly helpful or constructive. And dancing close to the borderline of the rules. But that has not been the overall tenor of this thread.

And, allow me to remind you, you just recently posted to someone on the dressage forum that they were “so full of sh** [their] eyes were brown.” Very clear violation of the rules, yet I didn’t delete your post or the thread because it was one aberration in a mostly OK thread.

[Kap]

@J Swan

unforgivable to ferret out their private lives and stalk them or publish directions to their house, call and harass people, etc.

]

Who did that?

Their business, complete with website, is not private.
Sending emails is not stalking. Heck, you are encouraging personal calls to her house- I’d say that’s closer to stalking than emailing is.
Her address is on her website, I believe. Mapquest makes it easy enough to find directions to any address.

J Swan, you yourself blasted these posters for NOT calling Liz Booth, but now you think it’s “unforgivable” to “call and harass people”?

Thanks for a good laugh.

[Erin]

@J Swan

I was referring to the anti-slaughter folks - I keep things strictly on the BB - unforgivable to ferret out their private lives and stalk them or publish directions to their house, call and harass people, etc.

No one has posted any information that was not available on their own website. No one has “stalked” them. No one has gone to their house. And your vague hints about harrassment are all I’ve heard about it, so I have no reason to believe that’s happening either.

Hmmm - we’re supposed to alert moderators - you told me that. I alerted you. Am I supposed to alert you or not? If we see a post we think violates the rules - we’re supposed to do something. In 6 years - I’ve done that how often?

Where did I say you were not supposed to alert me? I have no problems with you expressing your opinion on the thread, or suggesting that the moderators take a look at it. I DID object to your demand that I “CLOSE THIS THREAD,” and your telling other BBers what they can and can’t post. You’re not a moderator, and it’s not your call.

Geez - that comment on the dressage forum was tame - and I don’t recall you stepping in when people like me were subjected to far worse. But hey - it’s the dressage forum - those ladies play rough! I can take it in small doses.

That’s the point. People sometimes say things on BBs that are out of line. It does not mean the entire discussion is illegitimate and should be removed, or that the poster who was out of line is automatically an evil stalker.

[JSwan]

Did I EVER post anything is support of any policy or procedure? I can’t pick this person out of a lineup. I just know a lot of folks in the area, know of this business by reputation - and it has a GOOD reputation. Or did - until now.

I object to the intentional infliction of distress - and ruining someones business for fun. “Spicing things up” by calling and harassing is hitting below the belt. Ruining this person’s business with inuendo, unfounded accusations, and fantastic speculation is uncalled for and shameful. I like to make fun of things just like the next person - even more so - but to cause suffering? And take enjoyment from it?

There were lots of hits below the belt. How many of us attend dressage clinics knowing full well the instructor will lambast us for having jiggly thighs? Geez - there must be a thread a week on fat chicks and Lycra. But to target and individual and cause them harm? Instill fear? Ruin their reputation? I won’t travel that road with y’all - if that is the intent. And some of the posts were indeed intended that way.

@Seafilly

Personally, No, I would not bother to call - the website was offensive enough and told me far more than I’d ever want to know about this business. As soon as I got to the offensive paragraph about 40+ women who have had children, I was appalled. Can women who fit the description go after her for age/weight discrimination? I mean, really, that was a hurtful and insulting thing to say, and even if I don’t personally fit the description (other than being nearly 50, mother of two, and not being able to fit into my high-school clothing nowadays - nothing close to her snippy characterization), I was embarrassed that any horseperson - especially a horseWOMAN - would resort to such a nasty public and published comment. No one has hurt her business more than her own words. Do you not see that? If you support such language and policies, all I can say is, wow, I had a different impression from your previous writings. If our comments caused her to take down the offensive parts of her public website, then perhaps it has done her a favor…for free. JMHO.

Deb
(P.S. - if you want my personal details, just ask…frankly, your profile is fairly “anonymous” too, for all the talk about “hiding behind an internet ID” or whatever was said in that regard. I discourage my teens from posting their full names and addresses online as well.)

[carovet]

@J Swan

I don’t recall seeing the word “dislike”.

I saw words like “fraud”. “Criminal”. “Selling to killer buyers”. Lots of use of the word “fraud”, actually. Lots of allegations that this person was committing felonies.

By all means - if you don’t like her policies - don’t do business with her. If you think something could be improved - why not give her a call and say - hey - I noticed this on your site and I thought I’d give you a shout?

Must you ruin her and make her fearful?

perhaps blacking out info on coggins reports is more falsifying documents rather than fraud or criminal – i’ll call the state vet in the morning and ask so that we all know, it might be perfectly ok to scratch it out but since it is a federal document i doubt that is the case

as for selling to killer buyers, perhaps we all were mistaken – i don’t think that she ever used the phrase “killer buyer” on her website,

she did publish, though, about “liquidating stock” at a sale price that she said was $300 ---- and how she would be happy to assist former purchasers in “liquidating stock” and that people needed to understand that sometimes you simply can’t sell an animal for the price you paid for it and that wasn’t her fault

i actually agree that you can’t expect to re-coup the price you pay for any horse anytime, anyone who makes a profit when they sell a horse should consider themselves lucky, and indeed, it is not this lady’s fault if you buy a horse for a high price and then later you have to “liquidate” it, and it is kind of her to be willing to help you with that problem

and i don’t blame her for not using the phrase “by helping you to send it to the killers”, it doesn’t sound very nice that way, but as far as a i know that is what happens to the majority of horses that sell for $300, i think that is why we all, perhaps wrongly, assumed she was talking about killer sales price

(and personally, i do not want to have the horse meat industry closed – i’d rather see a crippled or mentally unstable horse be sent to the killers than have them dying inhumanely of neglect because people won’t pay to put them to sleep)(and i did purchase a horse with a fracture off the track knowing that if he had not become sound i would have sent him to the sale because i couldn’t afford not to at that point in my life and i figured at least i was trying to save him)(he did great, btw)

but i am not saying that she has ever in her entire life sent a horse to the killers or that she has known anyone who has ever had any dealings with that industry – i perhaps wrongly assumed that was the case when she said she had and could and would liquidate stock for $300

[JSwan]

AH! Now I understand. Yes - it is a lesson to me to either type, or participate in a telephone conversation with my crazy mother. Not both - and most certainly review for content before hitting the send button. It was not intended as a command, nor was it complete. But like I said - do one or the other but not both. Multitasking is for the young and non menopausal.

As for the rest - I’ll leave it as it touches on things I have no right to discuss.

@Erin

Where did I say you were not supposed to alert me? I have no problems with you expressing your opinion on the thread, or suggesting that the moderators take a look at it. I DID object to your demand that I “CLOSE THIS THREAD,” and your telling other BBers what they can and can’t post. You’re not a moderator, and it’s not your call.

[Kap]

J Swan, have you even stopped to think about what you are saying?

I can’t think of any accusations that weren’t founded on things she wrote on her own website. And even so, if people want to speculate about things like whether or not she “liquidates” her horses to the slaughterhouse, they are allowed to do so, as long as they don’t claim that what they are saying is proven (when it’s not).

[JSwan]

Yes, I did think about what I was saying, and I explained that I won’t go down the road of ruining someone’s life by idle speculation on the Internet.

And if you read all the posts - several were very disturbing and mean spirited.

Just don’t buy a horse from her if you don’t like the way she does business. Is it necessary to ruin her?

If so - why do you believe that causing suffering to this person is justified?

[Erin]

J Swan, the point you are missing is this:

A place could have the best horses on the planet, and the proprietor could be a horsewoman to rival the Man From Snowy River himself.

But if I wandered by such a website, no way no how would I even CONSIDER doing business with them. And no, I would not call them first to inquire if they were really as ludicrous as their website made them sound.

So… if people have a bad impression of this particular facility, where does the fault really lie?

Sorry, but this just smacks of “thou dost protest too much.” You have participated in plenty of discussions here that were along the exact same lines, and never complained.

[Seafilly]

@J Swan

Did I EVER post anything is support of any policy or procedure? I can’t pick this person out of a lineup. I just know a lot of folks in the area, know of this business by reputation - and it has a GOOD reputation. Or did - until now.

I object to the intentional infliction of distress - and ruining someones business for fun. “Spicing things up” by calling and harassing is hitting below the belt. Ruining this person’s business with inuendo, unfounded accusations, and fantastic speculation is uncalled for and shameful. I like to make fun of things just like the next person - even more so - but to cause suffering? And take enjoyment from it?

There were lots of hits below the belt. How many of us attend dressage clinics knowing full well the instructor will lambast us for having jiggly thighs? Geez - there must be a thread a week on fat chicks and Lycra. But to target and individual and cause them harm? Instill fear? Ruin their reputation? I won’t travel that road with y’all - if that is the intent. And some of the posts were indeed intended that way.

The website distressed many of us, too, btw. I think my first comment was about how bizarre it was, and I stand by that opinion. I don’t think anyone commented with the intent to inflict distress upon the woman, or ruin her reputation, if in truth, hers is in good standing. I’ve been to plenty of barns that supposedly had a good reputation - but that were a nightmare in reality. Heresay doesn’t convince me much anymore. In this case, my problem is with the published policies, many questionable or just plain wrong in my opinion, and I’m glad she at least had the good sense to remove them. Hopefully she will review and reconsider the fact that this many people (here and apparently on other horse-related forums) were offended by them.

As far as “fat chicks” and topics in that regard, there are plenty here who called the authors on the carpet for their poor judgment. But for the grace of God go I and all that. At least those ladies were out exercising - with horses as their chosen form of recreation - instead of sitting in the recliner eating bon-bons - and should be commended rather than ridiculed.

Deb

[kathtray]

I might be worried about this thread affecting the business of virginiasporthorse.com instead of virginiasporthorses.com … I absolutely agree with the posters who say that the Internet is an appropriate place to discuss publicly posted business policies. If everyone who posted here or looked at this thread phoned the owner of the farm up, she would likely become irate.

[arena_run]

If I may comment on this exponentially growing thread.

J Swan, I identify w/where you’re coming from. All BB members should do a little thinking before typing a hurtful post. All BB members should contain their negative opinions and only post encouraging, uplifting, and edifying replies.

Sure, we should all do this. But will we?

No.

Threads like this one will continue and honestly??? This is no where NEAR as hurtful as every single natural horsemanship (THERE! I said it!!!) thread I’ve had the displeasure of reading.

People will dig at others.

People will say hurtful things.

Not intentionally setting out to ruin lives - just artlessly giving an opinion - and a valid one, in my own opinion, in this case. It is, really, quite a website - quite a list of policies. Or at least it was…

I’m sure there are many things going on in her life we don’t know about. Heck there are things going on in all our lives which are reflected in our posts. Should we delve into each others private lives just to make sure we don’t say something others might find hurtful?

Doubtful that would happen. Every thread reflects on a personal level for someone. It just happens that this particular thread reflects on a personal level for you. sylvia

[SidesaddleRider]

This is my first post on the entire matter…

@J Swan

If so - why do you believe that causing suffering to this person is justified?

J Swan, I’ve read your posts to mean you are assuming that she will lose potential customers from COTH remarks, that her life will be “ruined”, and also an assumption that people are harrassing her, etc., but as of this moment, do YOU have any proof that either one has occurred? The only thing I’ve seen to back your belief that she has been impacted is that certain things are missing from her site. But that is NOT a direct correlation to loss of business. And even though people suggested giving her a call in previous posts, I don’t believe I read that the goal was to harass her, rather to do exactly as you said, question her business practices!

I don’t know Liz Booth, but I do know people in the area that have dealt with her, and I’ve heard both positives AND negatives about her farm, horses, and practices. This post was the first that I ever really looked at her website though.

[JSwan]

That is reasonable. But not all posts were as benign.

Erin - you’re looking to find fault - my problem with portions of this thread is that it goes beyond decency - disapproval of or disagreement with a business policy is much different that the accusations of “killer buyers”, insinuating that this person is committing felonies, is fraudulent, or even going further with comments such a “having to change clothes” or other inflammatory and irresponsible statements - statement intended to cause harm and inflict suffering.

If she’s a bad businesswomen, she’ll go out of business. If she’s a victim of a campaign intended to ruin her with wild and unsubstatianed claims - that’s a very different thing. Exactly what was the intent? I see both - some folks who took exception to the business practices - and others… downright awful.

@Seafilly

As far as “fat chicks” and topics in that regard, there are plenty here who called the authors on the carpet for their poor judgment. But for the grace of God go I and all that. At least those ladies were out exercising - with horses as their chosen form of recreation - instead of sitting in the reclining eating bon-bons - and should be commended.

[JSwan]

Sorry - it’s not my place to go any further.

@SidesaddleRider

J Swan, I’ve read your posts to mean you are assuming that she will lose potential customers from COTH remarks, that her life will be “ruined”, and also an assumption that people are harrassing her, etc., but as of this moment, do YOU have any proof that either one has occurred? The only thing I’ve seen to back your belief that she has been impacted is that certain things are missing from her site. But that is NOT a direct correlation to loss of business. And even though people suggested giving her a call in previous posts, I don’t believe I read that the goal was to harass her, rather to do exactly as you said, question her business practices!

I don’t know Liz Booth, but I do know people in the area that have dealt with her, and I’ve heard both positives AND negatives about her farm, horses, and practices. This post was the first that I ever really looked at her website though.

[Waterwitch]

@kathtray

I might be worried about this thread affecting the business of virginiasporthorse.com instead of virginiasporthorses.com … I absolutely agree with the posters who say that the Internet is an appropriate place to discuss publicly posted business policies. If everyone who posted here or looked at this thread phoned the owner of the farm up, she would likely become irate.

J Swan, are you perhaps defending the reputation of the wrong VSH?

Virginiasporthorse.com (singular) looks like an entirely respectable operation.

[SidesaddleRider]

@J Swan

Sorry - it’s not my place to go any further.

And yet you have admonished posters on this thread for making assumptions about practices without what you feel is direct information to back them up, while you are doing exactly the same thing, but aiming your comments at posters directly, rather than at VSH?

Hmm…

[JSwan]

Actually - it doesn’t at all. Lord knows I give as good as I get - but I don’t know this person and couldn’t pick her out of a lineup.

I read some posts that sent shivers down my spine.

@fourh mom

It just happens that this particular thread reflects on a personal level for you. sylvia