A challenge of explanation

[anon68314200]

A challenge for those who believe that “the horse creates the contact and the rider receives it.”How do you explain this concept?

I’ll take a crack first.

The rider/handler
1)perceives the asymmetry in the horses body

2. seeks to make the horse straight, ( by encouraging to shorten the long side/lengthen the short slide/reduce the push of the pushy hind leg/shift the weight of the shoulders from the dominant to the less dominant side) depending upon what the handler can perceive and influence.

3)these changes will result in the horse, reaching/telescope its neck forward and

4. The rider/handler handler is then able to offer a hand which “belongs to the horse” and) RECEIVES THE CONTACT.

This is not offered as a complete an absolute description, but a potential one.

Next victim……

[Scribbler]

@anon68314200

A challenge for those who believe that “the horse creates the contact and the rider receives it.”How do you explain this concept?

I’ll take a crack first.

The rider/handler
1)perceives the asymmetry in the horses body

2. seeks to make the horse straight, ( by encouraging to shorten the long side/lengthen the short slide/reduce the push of the pushy hind leg/shift the weight of the shoulders from the dominant to the less dominant side) depending upon what the handler can perceive and influence.

3)these changes will result in the horse, reaching/telescope its neck forward and

4. The rider/handler handler is then able to offer a hand which “belongs to the horse” and) RECEIVES THE CONTACT.

This is not offered as a complete an absolute description, but a potential one.

Next victim……

Much simpler.

When you get real impulsion in your horse, she will willing reach into the bit and become much more alert to your aids. Until you get real impulsion she will be sucking back and evading clear contact. Once you feel it happen you know what you need.

Making the horse straight is an additional step. That’s when the rider use various gymnastic tools like shifting shoulders or haunches or true or counter bend to position the horse in a more effective balance for whatever you are doing.

You can have contact and balance on any head set, long low and out or raised and flexed in collection. You can also have both these head sets without clear contact. You can also have a balanced horse on a loose rein as in Western performance disciplines.

So contact, balance, and head set are three different phenomenon that work together but can exist seperately.

[anon68314200]

@Scribbler

When you get real impulsion in your horse, she will willing reach into the bit and become much more alert to your aids. Until you get real impulsion she will be sucking back and evading clear contact. Once you feel it happen you know what you need.

Hmm…. I don’t think “real impulsion” is “simple.” Horses are inherently asymmetrical. Much like a car with one flat tire is not going to carry itself “forward” straight. All 4 tires have to filled.

You can temporarily create a ‘trick’ of balance by shifting the horses body around. But this is not the same as the horse having a mental search that is reflected in the body.

[Scribbler]

That’s why they are seperate in the training scale.

[anon68314200]

I have some beefs with the “training scale,” or perhaps it’s application. It results in riders who are encouraged to create influence unskillfully. They are encouraged to create effects within the horses bodies before they can perceive and control either their own bodies or the horses. Hence riders “creating a contact” with the horse is not on the other end.

[BigMama1]

I’m with you. Forward and active first. If you don’t have that energy coming from behind there’s nothing to go into the contact. Once the horse is forward and supple - ie you can move various parts of its body when and how you want, then you create the straightness

[sascha]

About the training scale beefs (me too to a certain degree) - it may help to think of the training scale not as a pyramid but as a never-ending circle or cycle. You always travel around it in the same direction, but you are always travelling around it.

Thinking of it as a pyramid can get riders and horses stuck on the idea of reaching their level of attainable perfection before moving to the next step which can make them plateau. We also need to remember that all the elements build on each other - when we make it to a certain level of collection, that gives the horse sufficient strength to increase suppleness and have better, more communicative contact. When that strength and suppleness are in place, making the “lower” elements better (rhythm/cadence, impulsion/suspension, etc.) can be achieved.

[Scribbler]

Absolutely it’s a cycle not a pyramid.

A lot depends to on what the horse is bringing to the table. The typical pyramid is rhythm and then relaxation first which is right for a young hot horse. And then impulsion means channelling that energy. But if you have a lazier horse then you need to work on getting them in front of the leg before you can do anything. So with my mare, when she wakes up she actually can demonstrate some education now. But if she’s not awake you aren’t getting anything out of her except relaxation. And that’s not enough!

[anon55755751]

@sascha

We also need to remember that all the elements build on each other

This is why it IS a pyramid to me. The purpose of cycling back down is to broaden the base to support higher echelons as they are introduced and then matured. Treating it like you should go straight up means the right metaphor would be a ladder, not a pyramid. Treating it like a circle means the upper echelons are equal to the lower, and they aren’t - Basics are basics for a reason. I haven’t heard anyone in dressage describe it this way - i got it from an agility trainer. We talk about going up the pyramid. We should be talking about expanding it outward.

[sascha]

@anon55755751

Treating it like a circle means the upper echelons

There are no upper echelons on a circle. That’s part of the point. Not all sections need to be the same size. The circle does not have to be travelled at the same speed both with one round of it, or each consecutive round. The circle doesn’t have the destination on it, the circle is the means of getting to various points on the way to the destination of having a trained horse.

I prefer circle as you move around it smoothly, everything is clearly connected and there are no steps to trip you up and no steps to have to go back down.

Thinking of it that way helps me and I put it out there as possible help for others to get over the mental challenge that surrounds the way some of us have been taught about the training scale.

If it doesn’t help you, that’s fine. It helps me and may help others that have trouble with the whole scale thing (I hated music scales too and got through my uni practical exam with an A even though I refused outright to play a single scale for the jury lol true story), if it doesn’t help you or you prefer to see it in some other iteration, that’s fine.

[BigMama1]

Great explanation, and shows why dressage is so much harder than it seems. The pyramid makes it seem you can conquer one step at a time and move up to the next step. What it doesn’t show is that every time you progress, you start at the bottom again. Suppleness at Training Level is not the same as suppleness at Third Level. Engagement at Fourth is not the same as engagement at GP. It’s never-ending lol

[anon68314200]

My problem with this description is that it implies/presumes ideal imputes from a rider/trainer. It’s focus on changing ONLY the horse is grossly inaccurate. HOW does the rider attachment better ? INFLUENCE better ? Telling people “what should happen” leaves them very much in the dark about the ‘means whereby.’ It also leads to riders who come up the level believing it is the HORSE that is the primary focus of ‘change.’

[Scribbler]

@anon68314200

My problem with this description is that it implies/presumes ideal imputes from a rider/trainer. It’s focus on changing ONLY the horse is grossly inaccurate. HOW does the rider attachment better ? INFLUENCE better ? Telling people “what should happen” leaves them very much in the dark about the ‘means whereby.’ It also leads to riders who come up the level believing it is the HORSE that is the primary focus of ‘change.’

There are a number of little cliches in riding.

Heels down, head up, you will never fall off.

Inside leg to outside rein.

Forward fixes everything.

The dressage training pyramid.

Etc.

They are all concepts that are generally true except when they aren’t. They are all concepts that can lead to errors when they are taken to be 100 per cent true. The dressage training pyramid or circle simply reminds us that we can not focus on every aspect of how a horse moves at the same time, and that if we don’t have the fundamentals we can’t build on them. It tells us nothing about how we get those fundamentals or how we gymnasticize the horse to exhibit this behaviour. Different horses start at different places and require different work. When I started with my mare so very long ago, she was tense and had a broken trot. We worked through that. Now she’s a bit lazy and we need to warm up to be forward and then we have contact and some decent effort for her type.

Anyhow, these little sayings kind of evaporate if you try to over think them. It’s not the Talmud; we don’t need to figure out the ramifications of every word and their eternal mystical significance. I say this because I have a good friend who tends to overthink and to latch onto phrases and want to literalize them and then argue their ultimate significance. Last week she got her teeth into “inside leg to outside rein” and wanted to argue that it was wrongheaded because because I think something about really bad seesaw dressage lessons she took years and years ago etc. I just said it’s not really about any one technique, it’s just about how we need to keep contact on the outside rein in both dressage and jumpers and keep the horse from falling into the circle.

Anyhow I kind of feel like this about the dressage training pyramid. It’s telling us we can’t get a horse on contact until it’s relaxed, and we can’t build maximum impulsion until we have that connection. But it’s not telling us exactly how to get there. It is a good reminder that if your horse starts to fall apart in a schooling session you need to go back to relax and rhythm before you continue. But it doesn’t tell us how.

Btw, I can’t imagine anyone coming up the levels for the first time and not recognizing that 90 per cent of it is rider skills. Sitting trot, quiet hands, aids, tact. One ride on a school master that’s blowing you off will teach you this.

Your coach is the person who should be telling you how you accomplish all this. The dressage pyramid and indeed all the details of tests and levels make no sense without good instruction and with bad instruction can be totally counterproductive.

[Rosewatt]

Have not read the other comments, but I’ll give it a shot.

The rider’s hand receives the forward energy of the horse and the rider’s seat/weight aid harnesses that energy to slow the tempo, thereby ‘recycling’ the energy. In that sense, the horse moves up into the bit and the rider receives it.

-went back to read some comments- I really like how sascha explained the pyramid. I also look at the pyramid as a circle… A horse has to have both a degree of alignment and forwardness to move up into contact. Bulging shoulders or motorcycling will certainly inhibit the horse from becoming relaxed and therefore building contact. A horse too slow or too fast will also struggle with proper balance to maintain contact. I also like how Scribbler mentioned that your approach in using the pyramid varies depending on the horse. I also see often in my parts that “forwardness” is often mistaken for speed and weight/seat aids aren’t implemented, so it just becomes a horse running on the forehand.

[hut-ho78]

@anon68314200 I love your description.

Here is my try. I feel pretty cheeky even attempting to describe it since trying to practically apply the theory is quite a challenge but here goes.

As the horse learns to carry a rider and develops strength and straightness and rhythm, the horse is more able to carry itself in balance. At this point, the horse is learning the language of the aids, and will seek greater contact. As the rider’s aids provide communication and guidance, the horse will also seek the feel of the ride’s hands and will lower its head to contact the receiving hand. The receiving hand is neither the following hand nor the set hand although both of those hands may come into play during the ride. The receiving hand is the lightest of contacts that provides enough tension that the bit is not loosely banging about in the horses mouth but does not restrict the horse from using its back to carry the rider in balance. The hand does not carry the horse, the horse is in self carriage. This enables the horse to “hear” the slightest of aids and frees its movements for the most power in the hindquarters and the most supple use of the neck and back, achieving “schwung.” The rider’s hand can then be described as “educated” as it is tactful and imparts only sufficient force for clear communication and not to disrupt the harmony of the horse and rider thereby descending into tension. The appearance of horse and rider will be pleasing to the observer.

[anon68314200]

@Scribbler

Btw, I can’t imagine anyone coming up the levels for the first time and not recognizing that 90 per cent of it is rider skills. Sitting trot, quiet hands, aids, tact. One ride on a school master that’s blowing you off will teach you this.

That is very surprising. In my experience it is the opposite. Riders feel strongly that the HORSE is trained, develops, improves. I will quote an old friend of mine when she was shopping for a prospect, “ I want a horse that will do its job, no matter what I do.”

[Scribbler]

@anon68314200

@Scribbler

Btw, I can’t imagine anyone coming up the levels for the first time and not recognizing that 90 per cent of it is rider skills. Sitting trot, quiet hands, aids, tact. One ride on a school master that’s blowing you off will teach you this.

That is very surprising. In my experience it is the opposite. Riders feel strongly that the HORSE is trained, develops, improves. I will quote an old friend of mine when she was shopping for a prospect, “ I want a horse that will do its job, no matter what I do.”

I’m sure those people are out there. It hasn’t been my experience. Im not sure it’s worth giving too much thought to people who think their horse is a self driving Tesla.

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

I’m sure those people are out there. It hasn’t been my experience. Im not sure it’s worth giving too much thought to people who think their horse is a self driving Tesla.

Me either. Rank beginners, sure. But not anyone who has actually taken lessons from a skilled dressage coach / trainer.

[anon68314200]

I will quote a judge I once scribed for ." the student doesn’t need to learn to ride. The exercises teach the horse."

[BigMama1]

I’ve heard stuff like that from crazy NH and “klassical” dressage people but never from real dressage people. If the rider can’t ride the exercises correctly how do the exercises train the horse?