A first for me..jumper breeding advice? A bit long...

So long story short my four year old Hanoverian mare has an injury (hoof abscess turned founder) that will not likely ever allow her to be sound enough to pursue a career in sport :(. My breeding goals are to breed competitive upper level dressage horses and I don’t think she fits the bill as a broodmare prospect in that context. (She is not a super mover, she lacks expression in the trot and canter and so to me that is a no go).

She is thankfully nice through the chute (at least judging from the few times we free jumped her). I have had a few jumper friends look at her and all thought she has scope to spare but could have better technique with the front legs. I was able to start her under saddle for about 3 weeks prior to this issue becoming apparent and I really enjoyed riding her. She has a good temperament, is sensitive in a good way and has a pretty balanced canter and a super walk.

She is by Autocrat and out of a Waldkoenig/Wodka/Der Lowe xx ) dam. She is 17hh, very rectangular framed, long front legs and more modern in type (though not “pretty”). She is built well behind, good angles though could have a longer croup. FWIW this is her as a foal (I don’t have any recent pics at all):

http://svhanoverians.com/Allegra.html

So I think my goal would be to produce a nice jumper for the amateur market. I would prefer something that doesn’t add size and something that of course has good rideability. If the stallion could also give more elasticity in the movement and a pretty head that would be a big bonus! Again, this mare is quite tall and the mares from this family produce very tall…I don’t want a giant. Am I asking for too much?

Obviously we are a bit late in the season but I do have access to semen from:
Zapatero VDL, Padinus, Jimtown and Contendro 1. I have always liked the Contendros and had wanted to breed this mare’s dam to him for a dressage prospect. I think he would suit this mare well but I have no idea about the other three?

Would really appreciate any advice here. Thanks!:slight_smile:

Does it have to be frozen? Have you looked at any of Edgar’s stallions? He doesn’t have CEM problems so no holdups at the border. Although he also provides frozen too. Corcovado is a stallion you might want to look carefully at.

Otherwise, I would look into Holstein stallions who are also approved Hanoverian, since you are planning on H approving her this summer. C line in particular.

Also check into Team Nijhof… the semen is already in Canada, a lot of stallions are approved Han and they give live foal guarantee. They will also help you get the right cross as they know what their stallions work well with and are ready and willing to give very good advice. I would speak to them about Clinton, Canabis Z, and Lord Z who brings in both Cottage Son and Ladykiller blood up real close.

Do you want Hanoverian registry?

Given that she is big and might need a bit better technique in front, and for semen easy to get this late in the season, I might consider one of Dreamscape’s young stallions: Farscape or Checkmate. Checkmate jumps great but maybe wouldn’t add the elasticity you are looking for. He has an interesting pedigree.
I recently have been eying Farscape. He is a very elastic mover and jumps well. He is also quite pretty, and seems to have a super temperament under saddle. He also has Furioso/Frueling which I have seen as a successful combination many times in making an elastic mover and useful jumper.
Using a young stallion is risky, but it could be nice if they start doing really well to have one of the earlier offspring.

Of the frozen choices I really like Zapatero.

The first one I thought of was contendro, but then you said rideability was important and the only contendro I’ve had experience with was less than ridable, but it seriously could have been mostly from the dam none of her siblings were easy to ride all from different sires.

All are good choices. See my 2011 filly by Zapatero VDL here: http://www.kimberleefarms.com/sales.htm. From what I have seen, he can “pretty up” the foals.

I would prefer if it were approved Hanoverian unless one of the stallions on the list I mentioned was a perfect match for her, I would try to go Dutch. Just easier to stick with one registry.

I would also kind of prefer frozen, I just like having the semen here when I need it though I would consider fresh if it were from a stallion in a nearby province ie one of Dreamscape’s stallions. Of her’s I like Bon Balou the best, I saw him at his licensing and I thought he was a nice type and mover. But I would really prefer something very proven production wise, yet another reason I like Contendro.

Kimberlee, I love your Zapatero, beautiful! Mom is also gorgeous!

Rodawn I will check out Nijhof stallions…I guess I just feel a bit like a fish out of water with this jumper stuff, like there are so many stallions to chose from and I have a week or so to decide.

Does anyone else have any input on the rideability of the Contendros? I do love him!

I second either Checkmate or Bon Balou! I had a super experience working with Jennifer at Dreamscape but beside that I think both of these boys have super potential. I really wanted to try Checkmate but with Zeus in his pedigree & my mare a little too hot I went with Bon Balou (the choice was made last minute).
Personally I was breeding for a 1.4+ jumper for myself with a little more rideabilty (my mare is more of a pro ride & I wanted to actually enjoy my ammy years :yes:).
Both of these guys have great bloodlines but they are very young so it’s just what you are looking for!
Bon Balou is approved Hanoverian.
Keeping my fingers crossed for my black dot which we are still 6 more days out!!
By the way, Bon Balou had great semen!!

Zavall VDL and Zirocco Blue are both approved by the Hanoverian Verband, and have good, proven frozen semen that you can get in Canada, from Prima Equestrian.
Zavall himself is doing well in sporth, as is his sire Casall - who is currently very much in demand.

I also like Valentino and As Di Villagana quite alot, both are available from Celle.

What about Viva Voltaire? He’s jumper bred but produced some nice dressage horses too. I also like Bon Balou. Since she’s not traditionally jump bred, I would stick with all-rounders that won’t kill the gaits.

[QUOTE=Donella;6402159]
I would prefer if it were approved Hanoverian unless one of the stallions on the list I mentioned was a perfect match for her, I would try to go Dutch. Just easier to stick with one registry.

I would also kind of prefer frozen, I just like having the semen here when I need it though I would consider fresh if it were from a stallion in a nearby province ie one of Dreamscape’s stallions. Of her’s I like Bon Balou the best, I saw him at his licensing and I thought he was a nice type and mover. But I would really prefer something very proven production wise, yet another reason I like Contendro.

Kimberlee, I love your Zapatero, beautiful! Mom is also gorgeous!

Rodawn I will check out Nijhof stallions…I guess I just feel a bit like a fish out of water with this jumper stuff, like there are so many stallions to chose from and I have a week or so to decide.

Does anyone else have any input on the rideability of the Contendros? I do love him![/QUOTE]

Don’t have a lot of advice for you, but I do have a 3 year old Contendro filly. I actually just picked her up today from the trainer after being started. She was there for 2 1/2 months and is walk-trot-canter and was playing with extended trot and turns on the fore-hand and leg yields. The trainer loved her. This trainer starts all of my horses and this has been her favorite so far. The trainer isn’t very free with praise, so to hear her positive comments about my filly was really nice. She said she was super easy, and very, very smart. Once she was shown something once she had it. She doesn’t need any lunging or other prep before being ridden. This trainer’s son works for her, as well, and this filly was his favorite horse in the barn. He would ride her bareback back and forth to turn-out, which freaked me out at first, but I trust them implicitly, so…
Anyway, she has a terrific mind and apparently excellent rideability and her dam is a Phantom/Polydor mare, so Pilot on top and bottom and that isn’t a recipe for rideability :slight_smile: For comparison the same trainer started another daughter of this mare, by Indoctro, and she wasn’t nearly as easy. So I do have to give Contendro some credit, for sure.
Only one example, but hope it helped!

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;6402546]

I also like Valentino and As Di Villagana quite alot, both are available from Celle.[/QUOTE]

I tried to purchase As Di Villagana earlier this year and was told Celle was out of it.

I will have a Valentino in the Spring. Great minds think alike? :):slight_smile:

Just wanted to add a little blip about Padinus. A horse I bred by him out of my TB mare has won dressage comps here. He is very well thought of as a dressage horse and they’ve had offers of a pure dressage home for him. Ok I have no idea what exactly that means but I never bred him for that purpose. He also can really jump and is being aimed for eventing. While I know you produce for top dressage, Padinus would have other dressage horses too. Plus they can jump. So just something else to mix in the pot. The horse I sold is with an Ammy owner and is a good enough ride. He’s not an easy plod but not just a professional ride. Usually they are quite flashy and good looking individuals. No chestnuts either. My lad turned out rather large at 17.2!

Terri

I fell in love with this stallion when he was presented a couple of years ago: http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/greytop.shtml He is tall, has nice movement, and I love his breeding. I have no idea if his semen works, but he is at Celle and they are selling it, so hopefully it is okay. I think you should give him a try, and then I will. :wink:

So I think my goal would be to produce a nice jumper for the amateur market. I would prefer something that doesn’t add size and something that of course has good rideability. If the stallion could also give more elasticity in the movement and a pretty head that would be a big bonus! Again, this mare is quite tall and the mares from this family produce very tall…I don’t want a giant. Am I asking for too much?

It is a bit funny that you wouldn’t consider breeding for an ammy dressage horse but will aim for an ammy jumper. But I guess the market difference is hunters…
Another thought is to pick a nice Tb (han approved) and breed for Eventing. Or just go with a hunter recognized stallion, like Viva and then you are not eliminating the foal from from the possibility of being a dressage horse of a decent level.

It is a bit funny that you wouldn’t consider breeding for an ammy dressage horse but will aim for an ammy jumper.

As I mentioned previously I am hoping to use a jumper stallion that is also a producer of good movers in the hope that maybe she will produce that way with him. Unfortunately it seems like the majority of ammy dressage riders want a big fancy mover so because I am not sure I will get that from this mare (and because she jumps well) I think I am better off trying for a jumper. If the foal moves well too then I will be thrilled!

The eventing idea is a good one… problem is finding the right semen in the next week or so? Not sure about marketing an eventer? Not that I am an expert at marketing jumpers either lol.

Hillside I looked at your filly, she is beautiful. I really haven’t seen a Contendro I don’t like and he himself is just stunning I think. Really leaning towards him.

Clint, Greytop is stunning (that is my type of horse!). He looks tall though and again , won’t be able to get the semen here right away I don’t think? Maybe next year?

I saw a Contendro I mare go through her AHS mare inspection a few years ago, and although her movement wasn’t off the scale, she was certainly very appealing and had excellent gaits. If I had Contendro semen sitting around, I would no doubt use it. Another thought is Comic Hilltop. He is totally jumper bred, has competed over fences, but his true calling seems to be dressage and last I heard, he was schooling grand prix. I love his type, but he may be bigger than you want. Hilltop had his semen last year, and of course, they are wonderful to work with. Maybe we can both try Grey Top next year.

Maybe you should go with Bon Balou then.
He checks a lot of your boxes: He jumps well, moves well for a jumper bred horse, not too big, foal can get Hanoverian registry, semen is readily available on short notice. Added bonus that his pedigree is recognizable to an amateur, so a foal might be easier to sell to that market.

I was thinking Balou after the original post too for all the reasons everyone else listed. Plus, and I’m going to a bad place for saying it but, shrug you might get nice chrome.

I have never seen him in person…can anyone comment on his temperment or conformation? What is he throwing–i.e. how are the foals? How did he do in competition (it said he would be competing in 2010)? He is actually a little similar in breeding to my mare if you go back in pedigree (Galoubet and Lanadel). Hence my curiosity. :slight_smile:

May I add some additional explanations to why I suggested who I did?

Your mare being a W line also descends from F and this line split into 2 specific “genres” as-it-were - - a jumping line and a dressage line. Today, many people think of F as strictly dressage, but it’s really not true. Ferdinand is a core stallion who was emphatically jumping, his famous son, Wendekreis was a jumper but some of his kids did dressage too. Waldkonig descends from Flügeladjutant. Waldkonig’s own personal damline also descends direct from Frustra II. Intersting to note that Flugeladjutant damline was straight A. Autocrat brings in A and D, as well as the introduction of jumper blood from Lugano II - - who, by the way was sired by Der Lowe out of an A mare. Therefore your mare is basically a goodly mix of A, D, F.

I suspect that with such strong dressage lineage, to breed to a jumper, you are not going to get a pure jumper. Even if you bred to a jumper stallion, you are more likely going to get an improved dressage horse. Perhaps a hunter. And this can be a very, very good thing, because Donella, your mare’s grand-kids should be a marked improvement (dressage) over herself BECAUSE of her influx of jumping blood.

This is not to slap down some of the young stallions mentioned, but since you are switching breeding direction with this mare, and she is a raw maiden, I would not use an unproven young stallion like Bon Balou. You not only don’t know what she’ll throw, especially because you are radically changing her breeding direction and technically introducing a completely new blood. A breeder doing this is thinking of the future generations, not necessarily what is immediately born. It is technically impacting your future mareline.

However, the mention of Viva Voltaire is a very good option too - solid blood, proven mareline, proven stallion himself. I’m sure they have frozen available if you prefer. Viva has a great brain and passes that on to his kids. Good conformation, good pure movement for technical marks, stamps his kids well. He has a couple kids in training with Tom Dvorak. He also has a number of kids jumping. Viva has been pretty consistent with his foal inspections too. So, another interesting choice for you, because you could end up either/or both. He’s fairly proven to be very consistent.

Your change in direction is also why I suggested Corcovado as an option (there’s frozen available too, I think) was because even though he and his sire both were specifically Holstein JUMPER bred, it turned out that Coriander not only showed and won at GP Show jumping, but also GP dressage… simultaneously! Coriander also was noted to have extraordinary brains. And he gave these gifts to his kids, and CorCovado is no exception. Corcovado is gifted with very good movement, enough to perform top level dressage, but if you check his pedigree, he is jumper bred all the way. Some of his kids are jumping, some are performing at dressage. All in all, good size, conformation, work ethic, performance abilities and athletics. The mareline coming through Coriander is very well-proven and it’s the mareline you study the most. Corcovado’s own momma is dual bred.

I also suggested Canabis Z, Clinton and Lord Z, because you have a maiden mare and these horses are all proven producers at the top level of sport. They are all 3 approved Hanoverian. All 3 have good conformation. The first 2 are notable in their movement. All 3 have semen available in Canada because Team Nijhof delivers it to storage in Canada.

Canabis Z especially is noted for top quality conformation, not to mention a very balanced pedigree. He proves himself through his kids. Clinton has excellent conformation and movement and is, as everyone knows, a gifted jumper, having been to the Olympics and many of his kids compete at the top of the sport.

With the heavy W/F line in your mare, you do have to be concerned about monsters. None of the horses I mentioned should encourage the production of monsters - neither mentally or physically ;). If you’re really concerned, then look at Lord Z. He’s a proven competitor, proven sire with kids competing at the top of the sport, and he adds considerable blood - the Ladykiller, Cottage Son and Meteor are EXTREMELY valuable blood and highly sought for and Lord Z carries it all within his first 3 generations. He’s a highly blooded stallion which should be very suitable for mares who have a propensity to have heavy kids. You know your mare’s personality and you will need to decide if this much blood would be a good thing or not. Some people like their food labelled as 5 chili peppers. Some prefer only 1 chili pepper. :wink:

Either way, it’s an interesting choice and I think you’re right to introduce jumper blood to this mare as you will find that the right jumper stallion enhances the DRESSAGE breeding program.

Good luck!

I have no idea whether your mare is a match or whether she should be bred to a jumperstallion but IF you do…

Contendro I is one of the most successful jumperstallions in Europe (looking at BLUP here in Sweden THE most successful). Many offsprings are uphill, really good canter and shorter back. AND have a powerful jump. On the smaller side.

Not a bad way to go. At least if you´re looking for 1.30+