If you do find another home for him, there is no guarantee that the new home will work out. The only way that you will always 100% know that he is not being passed from one situation to another and have no doubts about him not being mistreated or abandoned is to have him put down. I think that is the kindest and most responsible choice you have. I’m very sorry that you are in this position. I certainly don’t envy you for having to make this decision. {{{{{ HUGS }}}}}
IMO, doing in-home daycare would be stressful for most dogs and a dog who doesn’t do well in that environment isn’t necessarily a “bad” dog. Euthanizing seems pretty extreme.
If you are doing daycare, as opposed to say, after school care, the kids are probably pretty young and not really able to control their impulses around a dog. Expecting most dogs to tolerate children who aren’t family members coming in and out and approaching them and pestering them is probably unreasonable.
Growling and snapping is not the same as biting…it’s a dog letting kids know that they have had enough. My BC mix is a soft dog and endlessly tolerant with kid behavior. My ACD, not so much…she will growl and snap, but not bite. Since I’m just dealing with my son’s friends and not running a child centered business out of the home, I set limits on the boys to protect the dog and, if they don’t respect them, they are sent home…you can’t do that while officially caring for other peoples’ children.
Having pretty much any dog in the home while running a daycare would scare me, from a liability standpoint…any dog can be pushed too far. I’d separate the dog from the clients’ kids 100% of the time or not keep a dog at all while doing daycare professionally.
I’d try to rehome the dog to a home with no children, older children, or maybe just fewer and dog experienced children, before considering euthanisia. It doesn’t sound like the dog is approaching children agressively or attacking them…THAT would make him a euthanasia candidate.
I completely agree, Canaqua.
I can’t help thinking there’s a disconnect between the behavior described and the “euthanize” reaction of two pros - a trainer and a vet - to the problem.
By asking the question you know the answer.
We had to do this same thing once. Our dog was great, except around blond haired girls. My niece was three at the time and he growled at her every time she came around. Then he did it to another little girl. We could not take a chance.
[QUOTE=vacation1;7236277]
I can’t help thinking there’s a disconnect between the behavior described and the “euthanize” reaction of two pros - a trainer and a vet - to the problem.[/QUOTE]
Surely. I can’t imagine any trainer or vet suggesting euthanasia for a dog who merely growls and snaps at the approach of strange, young, children. That would be an environment/management problem, not a dog problem, as that’s pretty normal behavior for lots of dogs. I’d expect a vet or trainer to make suggestions on managing/supervising the kid/dog interaction before offering euthanasia, or even rehoming. That’s how we’ve survived 16 years with an intolerant ACD in the house and three boys…management and supervision. I’m wondering if OP is underreporting the level of agressiveness of the dog? Or, if OP doesn’t want to make the necessary alterations to the way she runs her household/business and the vet/trainer is out of ideas?
Why can’t the dog just be locked away in another part of the house or yard when the kids are there?
I don’t get it. Seems a simple solution.
[QUOTE=vacation1;7236277]
I can’t help thinking there’s a disconnect between the behavior described and the “euthanize” reaction of two pros - a trainer and a vet - to the problem.[/QUOTE]
I can see where both pros are coming from. The situation isn’t a family dog growling at the kids. The situation is a dog growling at other people’s kids in a in-home daycare setting. That’s on a WHOLE different level.
Just think about it- this is a difficult problem that probably doesn’t have a fix (dog does not like little kids), and if the vet or trainer offered advice on how to address the behavior and there was an incident, the OP would certainly tell the lawyered-up parents “but I was working with a professional”
When you think about how it could circle back and really bite the vet, trainer or any other professional involved in the ass, you can’t fault them for giving advice that, while extreme, WILL prevent a bad situation and NOT involve them any further. There are some situations you can’t fault someone for not getting involved in.
[QUOTE=Canaqua;7236252]
IMO, doing in-home daycare would be stressful for most dogs and a dog who doesn’t do well in that environment isn’t necessarily a “bad” dog. Euthanizing seems pretty extreme.
If you are doing daycare, as opposed to say, after school care, the kids are probably pretty young and not really able to control their impulses around a dog. Expecting most dogs to tolerate children who aren’t family members coming in and out and approaching them and pestering them is probably unreasonable.
Growling and snapping is not the same as biting…it’s a dog letting kids know that they have had enough. My BC mix is a soft dog and endlessly tolerant with kid behavior. My ACD, not so much…she will growl and snap, but not bite. Since I’m just dealing with my son’s friends and not running a child centered business out of the home, I set limits on the boys to protect the dog and, if they don’t respect them, they are sent home…you can’t do that while officially caring for other peoples’ children.
Having pretty much any dog in the home while running a daycare would scare me, from a liability standpoint…any dog can be pushed too far. I’d separate the dog from the clients’ kids 100% of the time or not keep a dog at all while doing daycare professionally.
I’d try to rehome the dog to a home with no children, older children, or maybe just fewer and dog experienced children, before considering euthanisia. It doesn’t sound like the dog is approaching children agressively or attacking them…THAT would make him a euthanasia candidate.[/QUOTE]
This 100%, great response.
Yeah, but, who would ever support keeping a dog loose in a daycare situation? That makes no sense at all. It’s not a dog problem, it’s a people problem. I’d never subject any dog (or kid) to that situation. It’s an accident waiting to happen, not just with a known grumpy dog, but any dog. Why wouldn’t vet or trainer point out the obvious? Remove the dog from the daycare situation…crate, out in the fenced yard while the kids are there, whatever. Or, if that’s not possible, don’t have a dog or don’t have a daycare.
Did you get him from the pound or from a private rescue group? If it’s the latter, will they not take him back? I know both of my dogs came from rescues with open-door policies with regards to dogs they adopt out - they will take them back any time.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;7236292]
Why can’t the dog just be locked away in another part of the house or yard when the kids are there?
I don’t get it. Seems a simple solution.[/QUOTE]
Heck ya! If need be, crate him in a quiet area, hand walk him while the kids are there and then let him have his freedom after work. I wouldn’t trust any of my dogs in a hectic daycare sitch and they haven’t shown aggressive behavior at all. Just sayin’ it’s manageable. Good on you for loving him so much. No need at all to put him down at this point!
[QUOTE=Canaqua;7236391]
Yeah, but, who would ever support keeping a dog loose in a daycare situation? That makes no sense at all. It’s not a dog problem, it’s a people problem. I’d never subject any dog (or kid) to that situation. It’s an accident waiting to happen, not just with a known grumpy dog, but any dog. Why wouldn’t vet or trainer point out the obvious? Remove the dog from the daycare situation…crate, out in the fenced yard while the kids are there, whatever. Or, if that’s not possible, don’t have a dog or don’t have a daycare.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I agree with you. How did the dog get access to the kids in the first place to even snap? Did the kids get to the dog? Did the dog get loose? Was it policy that the dog be allowed around the kids? Is the OP really resistant to crating the dog? Does the dog go crazy if crated but aware people are elsewhere in the house?
I feel like there are pieces missing out of this story and we don’t have all of it.
[QUOTE=8horsegirl;7235936]
I run a part-time day care at my house so he has to be around children alot.
He usually just growls/snaps out of the blue, like sometimes a kid can come up to him and he will behave OKAY other times he is all growly and snappy.[/QUOTE]
Why can’t you put him in another room with a deadbolt on the door so kids can’t accidentally open it, when the daycare kids are there?
[QUOTE=Canaqua;7236252]
Having pretty much any dog in the home while running a daycare would scare me, from a liability standpoint…any dog can be pushed too far. I’d separate the dog from the clients’ kids 100% of the time or not keep a dog at all while doing daycare professionally.[/QUOTE]
This.
When me and bro were little kids, our neighbor’s little mutt snapped at us, and finally bit me. The dog wasn’t vicious by any means, we were just stupid kids trying to love on it. The response from everyone (neighbor parents, etc) was pretty much “ok, so what did you do to the poor dog.”
But this was when I was a kid, and it was in the Old Country. These days and in the US I’d assume I’d get sued if my dog bit a kid, doubly so if I knew the dog had issues with kids and I failed to control it (and there’s a record of its kid issues, both from vet and the person OP approached as trainer), triply so if I actually ran a kid-centric business and allowed my dog-with-known-kid-issues to get anywhere near snapping distance of the kids.
And the dog would get put down anyways. Not much of a “save”.
It’s possible vet and potential-trainer know more and the dog should be euthed, but from the OP’s description it just sounds like it needs to be completely separated from the kids. Rehomed if that’s not feasible.
My last cocker did not like kids. She also had petit mal seizures and when she was coming out of one would snap at anyone who tried to disturb her.
She was never allowed around children. You say it’s part time day care? Why can’t the dog be kept in a separate part of the house or crated behind a locked door while the children are there?
I can’t imagine having a loose dog around day care kids anyway…that’s just an accident looking for a place to happen.
Agree your liability exposure is significant. If your insurance company has no knowledge that you are doing part-time daycare for compensation, and one of the children is injured by your dog, and brings a claim/suit against you, you’re in deep trouble. There’s a good chance they will deny coverage to you as it would be an incident which occurred as a result of a business operation at your home. The value of an injury by a dog against a child could be significant, and you could owe an extremely high judgment which could devastate you financially. Plus as Jan M says, you wouldn’t be able to forgive yourself.
As much as you love this dog, don’t set yourself up for disaster for you, him, or a child. Immediately keep him contained permanently away from the children, and I would seek another home for him away from children, or give up doing daycare.
So sorry. Best of luck.
Back in 1968 we had a young boxer of iffy disposition - bit one or two people in our yard/house. One day he got out of yard , ran around and bit an older woman in the neighborhood. The funny part of the story was my older sister chasing dog w/a frozen steak, the woman got bit in the BUTT and said sister took her to ER in her 2-seater british sports car…But the reality was back then my father was sued by the woman for dangerous dog. She won, was granted $25,000 (that’s about $170k now). If not for liability insurance (we had a pool) my father would have been done in…very scary.
I have a little cocker spaniel who is a total sweetheart but I was shocked when I took her to a friend’s barn and saw her doing this uncharacteristic snappy bark at the children running up and down the aisle of the barn. (Before I get yelled at for taking a dog to a barn that’s not my own, my friend was having a doggie birthday party so the dogs were invited!) It wasn’t an aggressive thing but more a “You need to calm the f down son!” warning. I kept her on the leash and corrected her but kids also got continuously scolded for running through the barn. I do eventually want a family and should my old girl still be around when that happens, I’ll need to take appropriate measures so that she’s not getting agitated and kids aren’t put in harms way. I think this is a totally manageable problem, so long as it’s approached with caution and common sense. For my own kids, I think she would be a great teaching tool on how to properly act around dogs but I’m not going to charge myself with teaching this lesson to other people’s kids. For everyone’s safety, there is no reason why you can’t practice some degrees of separation. There are plenty of options for you here that don’t include euthanasia.
Agree with Canaqua & others - putting the dog in this environment is setting him up to fail. The growling, snarling & snapping are warnings - if you train those behaviors away, you are likely going to get the end result, a bite. There are MANY dogs that aren’t good with children -they don’t need to be euthanized, they just shouldn’t be around kids.
