A Last Ditch Effort to ID a Brand

[riveraidenn]

Hello, All! Long time lurker who’s registered to join the conversation!

I bought my girl, Athena, a few weeks ago, and like many others before me, I’ve embarked on a quest to try and locate her brand. I’m not hoping to get anything out of it, other than satisfying curiosity about my mystery buckskin. Her brand is pretty unique, but I’ve searched the online brand books for states bordering my own and several out west (CA, OR, NV, UT, AZ, NM, TX - all counties!, LA, NE, MO, AK, MS, AL, GA, FL, TN, KY).

She’s got a hot brand; she’s 14ish old QH, and she’s likely done ranch work at some point; she’s got a fantastic handle off legwork alone and bends like no horse I’ve ridden.

A photo of her brand is here, along with bonus hand grazing photo!

I don’t know if anyone might recognize it, but I thought I’d cast a line out. Like I said, I’ve come to the acknowledgement that it’s more likely that I will never know any of her history, but she’s such a sweet horse with such an easy handle that I’d love to know anything I could about her history, if available.

Thanks so much and I look forward to much more knowledge gleaned through the Chron forums!

[Bluey]

Looks like a freeze brand?

People have found owners of brands of horses they thought came from ranches by buying an add, with photo, in this magazine’s classified, that has a large distribution in the SW:

http://www.livestockweekly.com/papers/16/05/26/index.html

Have you asked the TSCRA?

http://tscra.org

They have so many brands on file, maybe they have that one?

[riveraidenn]

I guess I should go back to the start: what makes it look like a freeze brand versus a hot brand? I’ll be the first to admit this is all quite new to me. My thoughts (they might be incorrect) were that a freeze brand would have the hair grow back white, but grow back. This brand is depressed and is only white because Athena is still shedding out. We bought her in April from a horse trader in the mountains of Alabama; by the time she came here, she was losing tons of hair each day - what is left in the depression of the brands is more of this loose hair, or very faint new hair. I’m used to freeze brands being more like the full white hair on the neck of a Mustang.

That’s a good idea on the classified! That might be something I look into. Generally speaking, do the original owners/branders object to being located? I’ve attempted to contact the folks on her original Coggins, but they will not return my calls, so I assume at some point in her immediate past, she came from a feedlot, but again, I have no proof.

I’ve been through the Texas brand search; all 254 counties for current and past registries. No avail. I’m starting to think it might just be a vanity brand or unregistered.

We (my 7 year old and myself) have begun to make up this story that the folks who owned her have the last name Fletcher, since her arrow in the brand just has the fletching and no arrowhead. We seem to find a few brands with a spear or an arrowhead, but none with just the fletch.

[hoopoe]

perhaps it is a Mexican brand

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=riveraidenn;8680705]
I guess I should go back to the start: what makes it look like a freeze brand versus a hot brand? I’ll be the first to admit this is all quite new to me. My thoughts (they might be incorrect) were that a freeze brand would have the hair grow back white, but grow back. This brand is depressed and is only white because Buttermilk is still shedding out. We bought her in April from a horse trader in the mountains of Alabama; by the time she came here, she was losing tons of hair each day - what is left in the depression of the brands is more of this loose hair, or very faint new hair. I’m used to freeze brands being more like the full white hair on the neck of a Mustang.

That’s a good idea on the classified! That might be something I look into. Generally speaking, do the original owners/branders object to being located? I’ve attempted to contact the folks on her original Coggins, but they will not return my calls, so I assume at some point in her immediate past, she came from a feedlot, but again, I have no proof.

I’ve been through the Texas brand search; all 254 counties for current and past registries. No avail. I’m starting to think it might just be a vanity brand or unregistered.

We (my 7 year old and myself) have begun to make up this story that the folks who owned her have the last name Fletcher, since her arrow in the brand just has the fletching and no arrowhead. We seem to find a few brands with a spear or an arrowhead, but none with just the fletch.[/QUOTE]

The TSCRA operates in other states and cooperates with even more others, so they may possibly know the brand, even if it is not a TX brand.

Hot brands tend to be somewhat more irregular and the edges would have blurred a bit.

Freeze brands, if you leave them a few seconds too long, will burn the follicles out and will be more hairless.

It would be difficult to make those arrow tail corners that crisp with a hot brand, why hot brands tend to not have but clear, long, rounded type lines.

[roseymare]

my first thought was that it looks like an airplane. Maybe the ranch was near an Air Force base?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8680962]
my first thought was that it looks like an airplane. Maybe the ranch was near an Air Force base?[/QUOTE]

I too thought it looked like maybe an airplane, strange as that would be for a brand years ago, why I decided it could be a truncated arrow, but anything goes today.

The trouble with that part of the brand, if it was a hot iron, half of the time, it could end up just a blotch, too many little lines and corners together, why it seems a freeze brand.

Whoever thought that is a mexican horse, there are plenty here and they tend to have large hot brands, more than one and hand drawn ones, not like that one, but never say never.

It would be interesting to know if the OP does find more.

[Fillabeana]

Agree with Bluey on the freeze brand, you don’t get clarity/ edges like that on a hot brand.
We freeze brand over 300 head of cattle every year with individual id numbers, leaving it on too long does look like that sometimes.
You also get different looking freeze brands from using liquid nitrogen versus dry ice and alcohol to cool the brands.
Good luck finding out more, I love your Fletcher story.

[riveraidenn]

First of all, thanks to everyone who provided me with more information on freeze versus hot branding. I really appreciate learning more about the process (thin though my knowledge may be!) on this trek to figure out a bit more about Buttermilk.

Bluey, I owe you an apology. I had heard of the TSCRA through the Texas brand registry… I now see they cover significantly more than that on their main page. Is it recommended to just drop an email to their general contact line to try and find more info? I’m sure I’m not the first person trying to hunt down a feed lot mystery brand, so they may be tired of answering queries, but I’d love to be a little pushy and see if anyone might know anything.

Lastly, the plane idea is curious! I hadn’t considered that… the nose of the plane extended fully under the C and the S (someone not clear in my overexposed photo!) but if artistic licensure is allowed I can definitely see it looking like an airplane as well as a fletching. Hmm, adds to the mystery a bit!

Thank you all for taking an interest and helping to give me a bit of homework to work on here!

[Bluey]

If that is a plane, maybe check on pilot web pages, one could also be breeding horses.

Facebook is generally one place where word of any you are searching for goes around like fire.
Try finding some places that could get many interested in helping you look, by checking in their area for you?

If you are in Florida, maybe check with their state cattleman’s association, in case one of their members that also raise horses knows of that horse brand?

[riveraidenn]

Bluey, you’ve been so much help! When you recommend contacting FL Cattlemen Association, this is going beyond simply checking their brand database, right? I’ve checked the brand registry for all SE and SW states but I have not directed my question to anyone specific in any state association.

TBH, I’m not sure how much further beyond reaching out to cattleman’s associations I will take it. I’d love to know more about her, but I am not planning on breeding her (or even trying to register here necessarily, but I would have liked her DOB or sire/dam to at least register her buckskin. As it is, she may always just be my mystery girl.

I’m planning on reaching out to folks in Texas or Alabama or Louisiana soon. But I think my best shot was if those traders that sold her (and are listed on her Coggins) would have returned my call, but alas, I don’t think they want to speak with me.

[Bluey]

I would try the facebook page of several horse and cattle associations.
You never know who may just know how to check that out, or directly about that brand, it is not common, very unique.

[lorilu]

this is an interesting page: http://north40life.com/ranch-brands-history-of-smoke-and-hair?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialWarfare

[csaper58]

I would contact vet schools, starting with the closest. Perhaps someone will recognize the brand.

Are the original owners close enough to drive to? I would pass by the farm and see what kind of place it is.

I would contact vets near original owner, see if they know the horse, or the brand.

[riveraidenn]

Bluey: What a world we live in; I’d have never considered that many of these places have a Facebook presence. Despite my own addiction to FB, I always think most places operate on a different standard! I should eat my words there! I have reached out to the previous owners from AL; would the vet be likely to know anything and/or is there HIPAA for animals? Is that something he could consider releasing to me if he knew anything else about her? My greenhorn is showing!

lorilu: That was a super helpful webpage. Not to get too off of my own topic, but I am a homeschooling mom and part of our project here has been incorporated into homeschooling: learning about what goes into a brand, the importance of branding livestock, grazing rights, etc etc. This was a concise and helpful article for us to discuss!

csaper58: It’s kind of a convoluted story on how we acquired Buttermilk. I tried to keep it brief in my OP, but the longer version is that we purchased her from a local ranch in Florida. This ranch regularly imports horses from another ranch in Alabama with the primary purpose of resale here in FL. From what little that the FL rancher told me and inferring quite a bit more, I suspect that the Alabama farm they do business with either goes to feedlots or works with yet another middleman who goes to feedlots. I got the impression from FL rancher that the AL rancher would get horses locally to him from families who no longer needed their horses, but it’s not a huge leap of the imagination that with the amount of horses that come into this FL ranch that some of them must come from feedlots. On a personal side, I haven’t requested more details from the FL ranch because they are very religious and I am very not, so while we have a good professional relationship, I’m not sure they’re inclined to do me any personal favours based on where they feel my life choices are.

My barn owner and me, well, we’ve created a bit of a story about Buttermilk (she was originally called Cindy). She’s branded, works entirely off leg and very little mouth input. I can weave her on poles and I only need to touch the reins when we make a 180 at the ends. She turns with great precision and has the capacity to do a sliding stop. She whoas with just a sit back in the seat and with some work on my part, she sidepasses pretty well. She’s very smart but still a touch mareish (testing us when loading on and off the trailer, being a general snob in the herd but well mannered in hand and under saddle). Based on these responses and her brand, we suspect she came from a working cattle ranch and was possibly used to sort/pen. She’s sat for a while, either in a bigger paddock at the ranch or in an intermediate home and then came to FL through the agreement with the AL and FL ranchers. She’s a bright girl, but she came to us about 200lbs underweight and as she’s put on more weight, she’s testing us a bit more. When we finally get a breakthrough on ground manners or trailer loading or anything else, she acts like she’s been doing it all her life. It’s likely she was but is just unaccustomed to doing the work again.

Sorry for the novel. I truly am grateful for the many doors you all are opening for my mind in this quest!

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=riveraidenn;8683693]
Bluey: What a world we live in; I’d have never considered that many of these places have a Facebook presence. Despite my own addiction to FB, I always think most places operate on a different standard! I should eat my words there! I have reached out to the previous owners from AL; would the vet be likely to know anything and/or is there HIPAA for animals? Is that something he could consider releasing to me if he knew anything else about her? My greenhorn is showing!

lorilu: That was a super helpful webpage. Not to get too off of my own topic, but I am a homeschooling mom and part of our project here has been incorporated into homeschooling: learning about what goes into a brand, the importance of branding livestock, grazing rights, etc etc. This was a concise and helpful article for us to discuss!

csaper58: It’s kind of a convoluted story on how we acquired Buttermilk. I tried to keep it brief in my OP, but the longer version is that we purchased her from a local ranch in Florida. This ranch regularly imports horses from another ranch in Alabama with the primary purpose of resale here in FL. From what little that the FL rancher told me and inferring quite a bit more, I suspect that the Alabama farm they do business with either goes to feedlots or works with yet another middleman who goes to feedlots. I got the impression from FL rancher that the AL rancher would get horses locally to him from families who no longer needed their horses, but it’s not a huge leap of the imagination that with the amount of horses that come into this FL ranch that some of them must come from feedlots. On a personal side, I haven’t requested more details from the FL ranch because they are very religious and I am very not, so while we have a good professional relationship, I’m not sure they’re inclined to do me any personal favours based on where they feel my life choices are.

My barn owner and me, well, we’ve created a bit of a story about Buttermilk (she was originally called Cindy). She’s branded, works entirely off leg and very little mouth input. I can weave her on poles and I only need to touch the reins when we make a 180 at the ends. She turns with great precision and has the capacity to do a sliding stop. She whoas with just a sit back in the seat and with some work on my part, she sidepasses pretty well. She’s very smart but still a touch mareish (testing us when loading on and off the trailer, being a general snob in the herd but well mannered in hand and under saddle). Based on these responses and her brand, we suspect she came from a working cattle ranch and was possibly used to sort/pen. She’s sat for a while, either in a bigger paddock at the ranch or in an intermediate home and then came to FL through the agreement with the AL and FL ranchers. She’s a bright girl, but she came to us about 200lbs underweight and as she’s put on more weight, she’s testing us a bit more. When we finally get a breakthrough on ground manners or trailer loading or anything else, she acts like she’s been doing it all her life. It’s likely she was but is just unaccustomed to doing the work again.

Sorry for the novel. I truly am grateful for the many doors you all are opening for my mind in this quest![/QUOTE]

I enjoyed reading your post.

Have you taken your horse near a cow? If so what did she do?

Perhaps contact a few of the Team Penning organizations around the Alabama farm? Most have news letters that you could advertise a picture of the brand in.

[csaper58]

The AQHA Region 9 Championships are June 3-5 in Jackson, Ms. It might help to put an add in that program. There will be people from all over attending.

www.mqha.org/Region%209.html

The contact window is under main menu. Tom McBeath is honest and well respected. You can e-mail him.

I wonder if you can post a pic of the brand on the Facebook of the club?

[roseymare]

Have you tried to Google image search a picture of the brand?

[riveraidenn]

csaper58: I would LOVE to see her near a cow. The barn I work out of doesn’t have any cattle. There are some not far from the show arena, but I haven’t had her trailered up there yet, mainly because of my confidence level not being where it should be! Seriously, though, my #1 Christmas wish would be to see if my hunch about her is right. Every little bit we find out about her is just…wow, it’s just so much fun. And I’m upset I only now had the opportunity to read your suggestion about the MQHA program because that would have been a capital idea. Her most recent stint was in Alabama, but to be honest, we suspect she could be anywhere from the SE (or maybe beyond) but we’ve theorized that if she is indeed from a feed lot prior to the AL ranch, it’s quite possible that she could be from several bordering state given her aptitude for riding. That being said, I will keep on their website and see what Mr. McBeath says about the best option to advertise in the future!

roseymare: That was actually the first thing we tried. Funny story: when we looked at her, the first time it was in mid-April and she had just been trailered down from the mountains in AL. She looked like a sweaty woolly bear languishing in our FL heat. She was so furry, her brand isn’t even listed on her Coggins…you simply could not see it. As we blocked her every visiting day between the day we signed a purchase agreement and the day we had the vet check we noticed this brand on her hip begin to reveal itself. We snapped a photo real quick and reverse image-searched it that night, before she was even ours. She was sold as grade but from her test rides it was absolutely clear to me that some significant training was put in her (whether she is registered AQHA or IBRA is inconsequential to us at this point as we are not planning on selling her) so it’s totally a manner of curiosity at this point.

Bluey: A small update on your suggestion of reaching out the Alabama Cattlemen’s Association on Facebook: they were receptive to the question and referred me to the State Extension Office: Equine Division (still on Facebook) who said they would ask around on my behalf. So while it’s not a super definitive result, the fact that folks are willing to put feelers out and offer to help was super inspiring.

I still need to try and call the vet who pulled her Coggins up in Alabama. I homeschool 3 kids under 8, so finding a quiet moment to plead a case is harder to come by than I’d like.

[meaty_ogre]

Your description of how she handles makes me wonder if she had reining training.

Maybe contact companies that make custom freeze brands and see if they’ve done an iron that matches your mare, and if so maybe they’d put you in contact with the customer?