A martingale question - standing v. running

[MoonLadyIsis]

I do hunters/jumpers and eventing. Here is my take. In the hunters a PROPERLY adjust standing would not affect performance. (IE the head set) hunter should go around soft and flowy with their nose poked out just in front of the vertical. I have seen plenty of horses learn to lean on a standing and even more horses go around with too tight standings. The only time a standing should come into play, is when the horse gets it’s head dangerously high . There are also many horses that learn that if they suck back, they can lift their heads higher. Since hunters max at 4’ (for the most part, only one division has the option of going to 4’6), there usually isn’t as much stretch and reach as you would see over the wider jumps in the jumpers/eventing. In the jumpers after 4’ or prize money of 15k (I believe don’t quote me on it) standings become illegal and runnings become the norm. There has been a discussion about changing the rules to allow runnings in the hunters. The hunters are ridden on a much softer and lighter contact. When I ride my hunter, I found that the running barely did anything because I spent so much time on a loose gappy rein.

For the eventing/jumpers, where you have to take make more precise movements at (often times) a lot quicker pace with a much more keen horse, I prefer the running. Again, it needs to be properly fitted. Would I feel comfortable schooling lower levels of XC in a properly fitted standing, yes. Would I do it? Probably not. A too tight running breaks the line from bit to elbow down, thereby ruining the communication and causing constant pressure on the mouth.

Basically, it all boils down to what your horse does better in and whether or not you have learned how to properly adjust the equipment. WHY you are using the equipment is also a very important piece and these pieces DO have a specific function. I have seen plenty of too loose standings and runnings used just because people thing it completes the look.

[scubed]

I have not had a problem with a running and using an opening rein. Sally Cousins is having me work quite a lot with an opening rein and I haven’t found my running gets in the way. I use a running with elastic in the attachments to add some give. I found I did not like the straight leather.

[amastrike]

I infinitely prefer running martingales, but I will occasionally use a standing… for instance, on my gelding when we were still working on steering. If I needed to use a big opening rein, I couldn’t with the running, so I have used a standing on him a few times, but mostly he doesn’t wear a martingale at all.

[JER]

I’ve never seen or heard of any documented accidents with standing martingales. I’ve encountered people who’ve heard about such accidents but not witnessed them. I’m not saying that there’ve never been any, just that rumors appear to loom larger than facts, IME.

I have had horses yank off a standing with a sharp head snap (intentional, in one case), but then I’ve also had that with a running. A thin leather strap is a thin leather strap. A martingale is rarely as thick as a halter, and think about how many times those break.

Mike Plumb always rides in a standing at home. Always. Every horse. When asked about it, he’ll tell you that’s what he’s always done, and also that he likes to have the martingale strap in case he needs to grab it for balance.

Due to Mike’s influence/insistence, my horses also train in standings. This includes jumping some pretty big jumps (4’+). And again, no issues whatsoever.

A properly adjusted standing doesn’t give you a head set. It’s just a check on the noseband – rather than the bit with a running – if the horse’s head gets too high. You don’t want a horse to ‘sit’ on the standing, but then that’s really about bad riding and not about the choice of tack.

[EventerAJ]

I witnessed an accident caused by a standing martingale, at a Pony Club clinic many years ago. It was not too short, as it passed a safety check before rider got on. The rider was from a H/J barn, showed in the equitation ring, and that was her usual tack. We were jumping courses at about 3’. Rider met an awkward distance at an oxer and her experienced horse tried to fix it. His legs cleared it safely, but he threw his head up for balance on the landing side, hit the end of the martingale, fell to his knees and skidded on his nose and shoulder. I remember it vividly, especially the moment when his head snapped the martingale taut right before he fell. Horse and rider were both ok, but I remember thinking it was totally unfair for the horse, especially an experienced, trustworthy animal as he was.

Standing martingales have a purpose. I have used them on young, green horses on the flat to protect my face. I have used it to reschool a spoiled older horse who needed some boundaries. However, since that day in Pony Club I will not jump in one.

Running martingales, properly adjusted, are much safer as you can slip the reins. A too-short running can also inhibit a horse’s jump, and can make him stop. I want the rings to easily reach the horse’s TMJ area with head at normal height. Too long is better than too short, when any kind of jumps are involved!

I have used a shorter running martingale on the flat, when control is needed (like a set of “rings” on the track). It does work for its intended purpose-- give the rider some leverage and temper a wild beast who wants to bolt with his head up, get light in front, etc. Again, would never jump in something that short.

[Jealoushe]

Standing martingales can be great if you have a horse who likes to throw his head up or around and does not like the action of the running martingale on the bit.

I use one on my young horse…but he can stretch his head all the way out and down, it only effects him when he throws his head very high.

[ride_the_pony]

My two cents

$ .01 Eventing rules want a "free going horse

$ .02 In a polo match I was 200 feet from a man killed when standing martingale broke and the horse threw its head into the rider’s face. Will Not use a Standing.

[purplnurpl]

[QUOTE=ride the pony;7470516]
My two cents

$ .01 Eventing rules want a "free going horse

$ .02 In a polo match I was 200 feet from a man killed when standing martingale broke and the horse threw its head into the rider’s face. Will Not use a Standing.[/QUOTE]

well in that instance it would seem ignorant to ride such a horse without a standing martingale…preferably a nylon one. lol.

I think maybe your statement is misleading and you meant so say something else??

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;7470154]
I witnessed an accident caused by a standing martingale, at a Pony Club clinic many years ago. It was not too short, as it passed a safety check before rider got on. The rider was from a H/J barn, showed in the equitation ring, and that was her usual tack. We were jumping courses at about 3’. Rider met an awkward distance at an oxer and her experienced horse tried to fix it. His legs cleared it safely, but he threw his head up for balance on the landing side, hit the end of the martingale, fell to his knees and skidded on his nose and shoulder. I remember it vividly, especially the moment when his head snapped the martingale taut right before he fell. Horse and rider were both ok, but I remember thinking it was totally unfair for the horse, especially an experienced, trustworthy animal as he was.

Standing martingales have a purpose. I have used them on young, green horses on the flat to protect my face. I have used it to reschool a spoiled older horse who needed some boundaries. However, since that day in Pony Club I will not jump in one.

Running martingales, properly adjusted, are much safer as you can slip the reins. A too-short running can also inhibit a horse’s jump, and can make him stop. I want the rings to easily reach the horse’s TMJ area with head at normal height. Too long is better than too short, when any kind of jumps are involved!

I have used a shorter running martingale on the flat, when control is needed (like a set of “rings” on the track). It does work for its intended purpose-- give the rider some leverage and temper a wild beast who wants to bolt with his head up, get light in front, etc. Again, would never jump in something that short.[/QUOTE]

Yikes! I’m surprised that the P.C. instructor allowed the rider to use the standing, since it’s (obviously) illegal in Pony Club–unless since it was a clinic situation, they didn’t want to change the tack the rider came with? Many P.C. instructors would remove any piece of tack they felt was potentially dangerous; or at least the old school “balls to the walls” types would feel compelled to do so

I’ve cliniced with Lucinda Greene several times, and she is not shy about changing tack in the middle of the clinic (usually after evaluating the horse, and rummaging through her “bag of bits” to find something she feels would be more suitable), but she is a big fan of runnings and will put them on horses in her clinics if she feels it would be helpful–or suggest the rider “run back to the trailer and get one if you brought one and didn’t put it on” (or an attachment, if they have a breastplate.)

LOVE your sig line, BTW! :lol:

[purplnurpl]

I think a more reasonable debat over equipment–if we are talking about a debate–is PROPERLY ADJUSTED tack.

There are TONS of people who adjust martingale waaaay too loose between the front legs.
It drives me a little nutty.

1. it looks stupid.
2. (and most importantly) it’s dangerous.

I’m pretty sure the video I saw was posted on COTH…a decade ago.
But someone had a loose martingale strap and the horse got his front hoof stuck in the strap jumping off a bank!! Somehow by the graces of God he got his hoof out for the landing.

Also, while I’m venting off topic–collars should be attached to the girth ABOVE the girth strap or in the slit of the elastic on a split girth. Not below. When they are attached below the strap slips down and interferes with the horses shoulder ROM. I see even pros doing it. I don’t get it…

in slit of split girth (though it would be even safer to put the strap above the girth billet of the saddle–that way the collar would pull on 100% of girth and not just 50%)
http://www.horsehero.com/resource/87560.196866.file.eng.Irish-Olympic-eventer-Joseph-Murphy-contesting-Ballandenisk-3-2012-with-Sandie.350.282.jpg

above girth billet
http://www.longformatclub.com/Pictures/T3DXC17113.jpg

found this on my picture quest and I think it’s hysterical…
http://www.ponybox.com/upload/news/2709_image2.jpg

um…WRONG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-H9_0xuB1eTU/TbygYpZ8B6I/AAAAAAAAPIQ/1ULOTFjoS1E/s1600/drop_black5.jpg
RIGHT!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/33cc22aa11bb/VanBokkelen-A-060312-4105.jpg

(plus I love how the wrong photo shows a terrible expression from both horse and rider and the right photo shows a really happy horse and rider!!)

grrr, of course I can’t find a picture I’m looking for–with a collar strap 1/2 way down he horse’s shoulder…
But I see it all the time at shows. As well as the martingale that is too loose underneath.

here is a crappy fit for a running! omg.
http://www.compassionatehorsetraining.com/sitebuilder/images/TrainingMartingale2-306x202.jpg

[Hawks_Nest]

@purplnurpl;7470573

RIGHT!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/33cc22aa11bb/VanBokkelen-A-060312-4105.jpg

(plus I love how the wrong photo shows a terrible expression from both horse and rider and the right photo shows a really happy horse and rider!!)

hey look it’s me (on my way to the last jump of my first ever prelim course having made it around clear!)

I like my running on my current horse, and the horse in the picture needed it with me simply because he liked to brace up against the bit and for my first prelim we wanted me to have the most control necessary. He does not normally go in a running these days (and is much better behaved with his mother anyway). My current guy is a head flinger but he is reactive enough that I would never put a standing on him, I would rather not have him hit it and freak. With the running it is there so he doesn’t break my face but there is give to it. It also comes in handy when I’m attempting to stop him after a long gallop on the beach

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;7470564]
Yikes! I’m surprised that the P.C. instructor allowed the rider to use the standing, since it’s (obviously) illegal in Pony Club–unless since it was a clinic situation, they didn’t want to change the tack the rider came with? Many P.C. instructors would remove any piece of tack they felt was potentially dangerous; or at least the old school “balls to the walls” types would feel compelled to do so

I’ve cliniced with Lucinda Greene several times, and she is not shy about changing tack in the middle of the clinic (usually after evaluating the horse, and rummaging through her “bag of bits” to find something she feels would be more suitable), but she is a big fan of runnings and will put them on horses in her clinics if she feels it would be helpful–or suggest the rider “run back to the trailer and get one if you brought one and didn’t put it on” (or an attachment, if they have a breastplate.)

LOVE your sig line, BTW! :lol:[/QUOTE]

It is not illegal to use a standing martingale for hunters or jumpers below 1.20 meters at USEF jumper shows. I know you can use them at the PC showjumping rally at the lower levels, although I can’t remember exactly where the cutoff is. But they are legal in some situations.

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;7470618]
It is not illegal to use a standing martingale for hunters or jumpers below 1.20 meters at USEF jumper shows. I know you can use them at the PC showjumping rally at the lower levels, although I can’t remember exactly where the cutoff is. But they are legal in some situations.[/QUOTE]

Re: USEF jumper shows, that I knew (and it makes sense.)

WRT P.C., I’m surprised to hear that–but then again I grew up doing P.C. in the 60’s and 70’s. WAY more hardasses back then, though some of them are still around I guess they are A) trying to draw/convert/sign up the LL H/J crowd (and there has actually been a specific “game plan” in place to do exactly this, by some of our local Pony Clubs), and B) at lower levels, how “dangerous” can it be? 3’ and over, I would think it could potentially pose more of a problem.

[Highflyer]

Oh, I was in it ~1987-2001, so I’m not 100% sure of the current rule, but that was the rule then-- and generally they follow USEF discipline rules where possible so I suspect it is. I do think that for very low fences being jumped by beginner riders a correctly adjusted standing can be more appropriate than a running for horses that must have a martingale.

[Lady_Eboshi]

This may be “old school,” but I was taught that a standing is more of a “gadget” and a running is more of an “aid.” I’ve only ever used a standing if I was schooling a real star-gazer or playing polo where it’s standard equipment. When I was eventing, I liked the running to keep my horse straight “in the pipeline” between my legs and hands to his fences; he had a tendency to get wiggly and was never an easy ride. I liked the stabilization.

I would never feel safe either hunting or going XC eventing in a standing. Just too much can go wrong there, and your horse needs his full range of motion to recover from a peck.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Anyone who has started a lot of horses knows a standing is not a gadget.

It doesn’t put the horse in a headset. It is purely a piece of safety equipment for the rider. They should only hit it in extreme situations.

I prefer it for green horses as it doesn’t work on the bit. Now if you start talking about using a standing with a tack nose band…then I would say you are gadget land.

Runnings do have their place too…and are as much of a gadget as a standing. Which to me isn’t much. I personally rarely ride in one…but then at the moment, I do not have a horse who needs one. Both my current horses go xc in basically a piece of rubber…and are ultra reactive. On a horse like that, I don’t need the action of the bit made any stronger…even if they put their head up.

You do need to understand tack and bits…do I think I will never use a running? Of course not…I’m sure I will have a horse in the future who I will put one…or even one of my current horses as they develop. I have one in my take trunk, along with a standing…and heaven, a set of draw reins. But for me, neither a standing nor a running is part of my standard equipment…nor are they something I would think would be a cure all or quick fix to anything.

[amastrike]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7470573]

here is a crappy fit for a running! omg.
http://www.compassionatehorsetraining.com/sitebuilder/images/TrainingMartingale2-306x202.jpg[/QUOTE]
Is that even a running? It looks strange.

[JER]

This is my mare schooling at home in a standing.

This is the same mare at a competition in a running.

This mare has a high head carriage (which is something I like) but neither type of martingale restricts her in any way. As you can see, the mare is also tiny (14.2hh) so for a full-sized adult (rider is 5’8"), there’s not much horse in front of you.

She can also be ridden with no martingale but that’s just not the JMP way.

[Noctis]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7470573]

here is a crappy fit for a running! omg.
http://www.compassionatehorsetraining.com/sitebuilder/images/TrainingMartingale2-306x202.jpg[/QUOTE]

That is actually, if I’m not mistaken from the time I spent showing Arabians, a training martingale, similar to this: http://w.mawebcenters.com/static/ecommerce/140/140147/media/catalog/category/multiringpic_1.jpg with less rings. Used for teaching headset, not used as a running martingale (never over fences etc). So not applicable for the discussion! And when you google “arabian training martingale” the picture purp posted comes up in the top few

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=JER;7471081]

This mare has a high head carriage (which is something I like) but neither type of martingale restricts her in any way. As you can see, the mare is also tiny (14.2hh) so for a full-sized adult (rider is 5’8"), there’s not much horse in front of you.

She can also be ridden with no martingale but that’s just not the JMP way.[/QUOTE]

Similar to my horse, high head carriage, short neck.

Here he is doing the 2’0 jumpers at his first jumper show. You can see how he flips his head up every now and then, but there is still lots of room with a standing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGY9Q_Uz-GQ