A martingale question - standing v. running

Hi folks, chatting with a couple friends and the topic of standing and running martingales came up. I know standing martingales are illegal in eventing… can anyone tell me why? I tried a search and found people saying they’re insanely dangerous over big jumps or on xc but no explanation on why.

FWIW I see a LOT of improperly adjusted standing martingales in the hunters where a too-short martingale is used to get the desired headset. Clearly that’s dangerous. But wouldn’t a too-short running martingale also be dangerous? What’s the difference? Not advocating for one or the other, genuinely curious :slight_smile:

I never use a standing anymore for the same reason they are illegal in eventing. Since it is a fixed length (and I have witnessed this in action, shudder), if the horse, say, slips around a turn, and throws his head up to balance, he is restricted by the standing martingale. Even if it snaps (it did in this case), it still delayed his attempt to balance, his feet slid out sideways and he slammed himself and his (thankfully helmeted rider) sideways onto the ground. She had a heck of a concussion, but both were ok in the end.

I believe they were first made illegal because horses had had trouble getting up in water and either had increased risk of drowning or one did drown? At any rate, that is why they are illegal.

There are lots of ways anything can be dangerous and everyone has their personal preferences based on their experiences and situation and horse. But even a too short running martingale will have much more of a release to it when the rider is no longer holding the reins than a standing, particularly if the latter does not break.

The rationale is that it prevents them from using their heads/ necks to save themselves, as wildlifer said. I’m not sure how big of a risk it really is, since I’ve seen a lot of people hunt in them, even over quite big, rough country.

A standing martingale is FIXED. If that buggar is too short, and your horse were to lets say trip in trappy footing, and NEED to use his head and neck to regain balance - a standing martingale could prevent that, and cause a serious accident.

By contrast, a running martingale slides along the reins, if the horse were to need to use its head and neck in a way to prevent a fall - the rider can “give the reins” (or the horse can yank them!)- the rider and the horse has no such choice with a fixed standing martingale, the horse is going to hit the martingale and be hindered.

They’re too restrictive. As has been said, they prevent a horse from using their head and neck for balance.

Not related to why they’re illegal in eventing, but I don’t like them because they have a sharper action. Runnings have some give, so when a horse hits the running, it’s not like hitting a brick wall. When a horse hits the standing, BAM, it’s there.

[QUOTE=amastrike;7466552]

Not related to why they’re illegal in eventing, but I don’t like them because they have a sharper action. Runnings have some give, so when a horse hits the running, it’s not like hitting a brick wall. When a horse hits the standing, BAM, it’s there.[/QUOTE]

Interesting…I think of runnings as more severe and having a sharper action because they both work on the bit and are controlled by the rider where the standing is on the cavasson and releases immediately when the horse releases.

Basically a running gives a rider leverage with the bit if the horse puts its nose way up. A standing can be a lifesaver on a green horse who wants to rear or throw their head up…it saves the rider’s nose from being broken but also releases immediately when the horse releases to the pressure and isn’t working on the bit.

I’d use a standing on a young horse…but after that, rarely. I also rarely use a running–although I do like them from the perspective that they help keep your reins from going over the horse’s head (can happen on the bigger drops)----as I really don’t like the feel in the contact that I get if I use one and they are engaged.

To each their own.

[QUOTE=wildlifer;7466405]
I never use a standing anymore for the same reason they are illegal in eventing. Since it is a fixed length (and I have witnessed this in action, shudder), if the horse, say, slips around a turn, and throws his head up to balance, he is restricted by the standing martingale. Even if it snaps (it did in this case), it still delayed his attempt to balance, his feet slid out sideways and he slammed himself and his (thankfully helmeted rider) sideways onto the ground. She had a heck of a concussion, but both were ok in the end.

I believe they were first made illegal because horses had had trouble getting up in water and either had increased risk of drowning or one did drown? At any rate, that is why they are illegal.

There are lots of ways anything can be dangerous and everyone has their personal preferences based on their experiences and situation and horse. But even a too short running martingale will have much more of a release to it when the rider is no longer holding the reins than a standing, particularly if the latter does not break.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much! This explains perfectly.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7466596]

A standing can be a lifesaver on a green horse who wants to rear or throw their head up…it saves the rider’s nose from being broken but also releases immediately when the horse releases to the pressure and isn’t working on the bit.

To each their own.[/QUOTE]

Bornfree, this is my thought exactly on standing martigales. The green horse essentially nails themselves and then experiences instant relief. A properly fitted standing is a great piece of safety equipment in certain situations. But all the great replies above make total sense to me.

Thanks all! :slight_smile:

I would never use a standing for any sort of jumping activity. I’ve seen a couple big accidents happen as a result - the head and neck are the rudder for horses and when that is compromised their balance can be compromised too. I find the short standings to be nothing short of cruel in terms of horsemanship, but that is just me.

However, I will totally use a standing on a rearer or a horse who is very, very insolent. But not if I am doing anything more than canter - and it has to be properly adjusted too.

In my experience, a too-short martingale is dangerous, both kinds. Both can/will cause accidents. A properly adjusted running martingale shouldn’t affect the reins or the horse when they are slipping unless they are putting their head practically perpendicular to their body - which they do not do when they are falling.

[QUOTE=beowulf;7466894]
I would never use a standing for any sort of jumping activity. [/QUOTE]

Maybe I should go over to the H/J forum and ask the same question? The hunter pros ride up to 4’ using standing martingales.

Go ahead. You’ve gotten good answers here, but apparently not the answer you wanted.

[QUOTE=SillyHorse;7467201]
Go ahead. You’ve gotten good answers here, but apparently not the answer you wanted.[/QUOTE]

You misunderstand. I really appreciate the answers I’ve received. But I then wonder if running martingales are so much safer, why aren’t they universally used in all jumping disciplines? I’m genuinely trying broaden my understanding here. Not trying to be snarky.

I think that a running martingale can restrict a horse’s head over a fence just as much as a standing but it adds a pulley action against the mouth which can be more severe when the rider doesn’t release as much. It also means you can’t use an opening rein because you will hit the rings and the bit so someone wanting to use a wide opening rein while still controlling the head might use a standing.

[QUOTE=Duckz;7467198]
Maybe I should go over to the H/J forum and ask the same question? The hunter pros ride up to 4’ using standing martingales.[/QUOTE]

Hunters are quickly becoming (have become?) a parody of good riding and horsemanship. You will see many behaviors that are at odds with having a sound, sane horse that is a joy to ride.

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7467218]
It also means you can’t use an opening rein because you will hit the rings and the bit so someone wanting to use a wide opening rein while still controlling the head might use a standing.[/QUOTE]

This is why I don’t like a running. It’s fine in the ring, but I apparently use an opening rein more when hacking out because I find it impedes my steering.

I think with a discussion of any sort of martingale you have to ask what you are looking for in terms of reaction – and what you are using it for, what you are DOING with the horse.

A standing martingale provides a limit to the amount of height a horse can raise his head above the wither. That is all. It is attached to the noseband. It limits the plane of of the head. As such, it keeps the mouth within contact of the reins especially if the horse is pulling, rooting, or pushing the nose forward. The horse feels the restriction and technically should react by releasing the pressure on the nose and dropping the face back, which puts his jaw and mouth, including the bars, back toward the rider’s hands, presumably soft and in contact. Some horses learn to feel that pressure and lean into it and develop a muscle system in the neck, wither and back to actually be able to jump restricted, but fairly inverted. The wonderful four foot show ring hunters with the martingales are not this way. The martingale really is for show, I believe, as these horses are properly muscled and jump in a round manner, which means the muscle development is correct and the martingale is not used to brace upon by the horse. A standing martingale is a reminder to a horse not to get above or beyond the aids, and can be used with a young horse that gets hopping, jumping forward, raising the head, or throwing the head to avoid the bit’s action. It’s useful to protect a rider that is riding forward, i.e., with the head and hands forward over the wither. It’s insurance – meant to be something that limits a horse from raising its head above the influence of the bit. It is used at all gaits and at many stages of a horse’s development.

The running martingale is used as an adjunct pressure piece that ADDS to the power of the bit, and reacts primarily on the BARS of the mouth when the reins are straightened and pressure is applied. It is important to note that a running martingale should never be adjusted where the reins are dipped downward in a V when light contact is made, because this makes the bit contact the bars in an unrelenting fashion, and actually can make a horse raise the head to avoid that pressure. Kind of counter productive. Instead, a properly adjusted running only comes into play when a horse runs his mouth out against the bit, fights any half halt, leans, or takes a hold; all a good rider has to do is raise the hands just slightly and the rings apply some leverage. A running is really meant to be used while galloping or jumping, when the horse HAS to raise its head as it strides forward, with the hips coming underneath and the back undulating, as the head and neck pump up and down to increase the power of the gallop. When you think about this, you see that it’s a specialty item of tack used in horses that “power gallop” – jumpers, perhaps steeplechasers at times, for sure foxhunters and eventers mostly – rather than in the showring hunter or a flatter strided sport horse.

In addition I use a running martingale to keep my reins on the correct side of the neck, and away from the horse’s front feet should I fall or get separated in some way. I had a horse get the reins over the head, step on them and break them and learned if the running martingale were on, even if loosely adjusted where it wouldn’t be a factor if the reins were in contact, it would keep them safely away from the front feet. I almost always hunt and go cross country in a running on everything for that reason – I like my reins and am a bit picky about them because of my arthritis, so the running martingale prevents breakage and saves the horse from a bad cut or bruise on the mouth should they step on a rein.

Can you tell that a horse’s conformation and way of going determines a lot of this stuff? There is a reason these items of tack were historically developed, the horsemen of yore had a darn good observation technique.

Sorry for the book! I love this stuff, can’t you tell. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Duckz;7467198]
Maybe I should go over to the H/J forum and ask the same question? The hunter pros ride up to 4’ using standing martingales.[/QUOTE]

Go ahead and ask - like SillyHorse said, you’ve gotten great, educated and informative answers here, but apparently not the answers you were looking for?

I wouldn’t use a standing for any jumping activity. I am not a hunter pro. Tinah is right - unless I want to get laughed at by my peers, I’ll stick to eventing and never jumping in a standing martingale. It sure hasn’t hurt my performance any.

A standing is a no-no out hunting too, and has been for ever. If a horse needs to find his fifth leg, he can find it without hindrance. In the H/H world they are certainly capable of a mistake/trip, but the footing is smooth and jumps predictable. Eventers are not worried about headset out on course.

I suppose the answer I was “looking” for was a comparison of the two types and pros and cons. I’m always a little suspicious of black/white good/bad we’re right/they’re wrong answers concerning equipment. There are some great answers in this thread and I’m enjoying the responses. Thank you everyone!

[QUOTE=Duckz;7468325]
I suppose the answer I was “looking” for was a comparison of the two types and pros and cons. I’m always a little suspicious of black/white good/bad we’re right/they’re wrong answers concerning equipment. There are some great answers in this thread and I’m enjoying the responses. Thank you everyone![/QUOTE]

I agree, OP. I think we can learn much from other disciplines. I also don’t disparage H/J riders and trainers because I respect some of those I’ve known over the years.

The more info, the better.

I use the running only on horses who throw their heads up. But I like what retreader noted about the use of the running martingale to keep reins from slipping over the head in the case of a fall. I use the standing on total babies and it’s a standard piece of tack for those in their first 3 months. It’s just there so if they decide to throw their head up, I don’t break my nose. :slight_smile:

Problems arise with either when they’re adjusted too tightly.

Note: aRound here, the standing attachment is common for foxhunting. I’ve yet to see a problem with that in the hunt field.