A new can of worms! Who's qualified to judge Western Dressage?

The last thread/predictable train wreck on the Dressage meets Western (kinda, sorta, maybe) got to a new topic which we have not explored yet.

That topic is judging Western Dressage. Who should judge it? What’s the “search image” those judges should use when evaluating horses?

To refine it a little bit, I’d ask more specifically about seeing great training (which produced a horse using his particularly body to the best of its ability) vs. qualities-of-gaits that have been bred in.

And I’d ask about more abstract concepts like “submission.” In particular here, I think DressageWorld and most of western world wants a horse to behave differently toward a snaffle bit in his mouth.

For the sake of this discussion, I’ll leave out the whole stupid “you can ride in a curb with two hands” thing. Can we just agree that this is a political compromise/mistake/artifact of WD getting off the ground and being a young discipline still finding its way? If you do wish to defend that way of riding, go ahead it seems like a bit of a side-bar topic to me.

And what happens when someone shows their very well-trained hackamore-stage horse in WD? There isn’t properly an equivalent stage in that horse’s training to “push in to the bridle to seek contact.” I’m not sure there’s a “stretchy circle on the buckle” for that horse. Though perhaps you could teach it.

I’ll give you my thoughts on how judging standards for dressage world and be fruitfully applied to WD, without dissing Western approaches to training (at least the good ones). But I’d like you opinions, too.

Think hard, be civil, enlighten us all.

Well, since it is a new class, I think there has to be some judging seminars, so that judges that are going to be judging WD have definite guidlelines as what to reward, and can interpretate the rules correctly, as it applies to WD
Who will be the ‘judge’ to teach the judges, is another question.
Judging seminars certainly are useful. I attended one give by Joe Carter. He holds judging cards in many disciplines, and is also a farrier. The seminar was open to both judges and horsemen in general.
Video presentations, helped to explain/clarify what plus maneuvers were, as for instance, in reining
When the new western pl rules were put in place, Joe attended show like the AQHA Congress and ApHC World show, to see/guide the judges to judge per new rules
Thus, I think judges that are judging WD, need to have the background of some kind of formal education to understand exactly what they should reward, and not just follow their personal preference, based on their background

I have no answer, but I think it’s a vitally important question and the answer will have a large impact on the future success of WD as a discipline.

I already stated my concerns in the previous discussion, so I won’t repeat them here.

I would suggest you start with a listing of who judged the recent WDAA World show, and build/tear down, from there.

Anita Owens (S judge),
Fatima Kranz (R judge)
Sandi Chohany (S judge),
Donna Longacre (R judge)

There are two options offered:
Grandfathering Program is effect through December 1, 2015 – designed primarily for current carded USEF Dressage Judges
Advanced Training Program (ATP) – designed for those with history in judging for Dressage, Western and/or Breed events. Additional background allowances and requirements can be found in the description.

If not the above, then who?

WDAA is seeking to educate and create a level playing field (not Morgan breed judge vs. QH breed judge but ‘trained’ WD judge) with their educational opportunities.

What else do you want done?

Not quite sure why this is being debated by the COTH forum members, as it has already been addressed by the WDAA

http://www.westerndressageassociation.org/western-dressage-judges-education-program/

[QUOTE=Flash44;7948035]
Not quite sure why this is being debated by the COTH forum members, as it has already been addressed by the WDAA

http://www.westerndressageassociation.org/western-dressage-judges-education-program/[/QUOTE]

Well, someone posed the question, and not all of us here are aware that the debate is already underway by those involved. Thanks for the info
I just clicked on the link, and see that some very positive directions are being taken, far as clarifying /educating judging standards for WD

I feel that a sensible approach would be to continue on using judges already licensed by the USEF. If an AQHA judge can get themselves a small “r” as a USEF judge then they have learned the criteria for dressage regardless of breed or tack.

My fear is that there will be too many cross overs from the sleepwalking, peanut rolling, judges who have been pinning horses in WP.

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7953114]
I feel that a sensible approach would be to continue on using judges already licensed by the USEF. If an AQHA judge can get themselves a small “r” as a USEF judge then they have learned the criteria for dressage regardless of breed or tack.

My fear is that there will be too many cross overs from the sleepwalking, peanut rolling, judges who have been pinning horses in WP.[/QUOTE]

We don’t have peanut rolling , sleep walking western pl horses,winning under good judges, so why qualify your comment with a bash?
The WD organization is already apparently working at defining rules and judging guidelines, so no, USEF judge is not necessarily qualified, as this is a new discipline
A judge qualified, for instance, to Judge Arabian western pl, is not qualified to judge NSBA, without becoming carded there also
I doubt very much that someone who has a good western pleasure horse, would cross enter into WD. Your cross entries more likely will be dressage horses, with western tack, and perhaps that is why rules and criteria need to be redifined

[QUOTE=Flash44;7948035]
Not quite sure why this is being debated by the COTH forum members, as it has already been addressed by the WDAA

http://www.westerndressageassociation.org/western-dressage-judges-education-program/[/QUOTE]

Just asking a different audience for their views, that’s all.

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7953114]
I feel that a sensible approach would be to continue on using judges already licensed by the USEF. If an AQHA judge can get themselves a small “r” as a USEF judge then they have learned the criteria for dressage regardless of breed or tack.

My fear is that there will be too many cross overs from the sleepwalking, peanut rolling, judges who have been pinning horses in WP.[/QUOTE]

Have you bothered to watch what horses are actually getting entered in these classes and winning them?

From the WDAA World 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U3BGv8mInQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3R51JZydk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okD3CYE19p0

and 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi-4Awmgg7A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA3L6s_aG7U

I don’t see anything out there like what you’re describing.

if ‘those’ horses and riders aren’t at the WD shows, they can’t place them.

If you can find even one peanut rolling WD competitor for those peanut rolling judges to pin, I’ll …eat my peanutbutterpony :slight_smile: