A new disaster in the making?

[anon15718925]

@trubandloki

I am never not there when my horse gets vet or farrier care so people stand around and gab while the vet/farrier is doing their thing. Then conversations happen about how Dobbin is doing and people listen as the vet talks (unless the owner wants privacy).

Fair, I didn’t own a horse when I was last in a barn regularly, was a lesson rider so yeah. I guess I just feel like, medical stuff, not my horse, not my place to judge, conversations do happen but I personally wouldn’t listen that closely nor would I likely remember details months later.

When I owned a horse myself I absolutely was there for appointments, schedule allowing, though not always possible in some cases (e.g. farrier coming out late morning when I had college classes to do all horses).

[OverandOnward]

Problematic as the situation is as it has been presented so far …

I can completely understand OP’s concern that this may be an over-faced new owner who hasn’t had full disclosure about exactly what the new owner just bought.

On the one hand, yes we don’t know the whole story, and new owner may just be keeping their information to themselves. I do that when I’m not interested in a group participation problem-solving situation.

On the other hand, I’m sure many of us have known a good bit more about a horse than does a new owner, or even a prospective buyer. And it is information that they really need to have. They could be walking into an expensive and disappointing situation, or even a dangerous situation. Do they know or not know?

What if we know that yes they did get ‘help’ – but from a completely unreliable person, and/or someone with poor judgment and/or a high risk tolerance? I watched that play out at least 3 times before leaving that barn. The broken bones (human) were many but they all thought it was normal – and in that barn, broken bones were indeed normal.

What is the right thing to do? Be the over-involved barn friend who delivers information that no one asked for? Or shutupify myself and watch a sad drama play out over weeks and months? And maybe months later hear the new owner say “I wish I had known”, “I would have done differently if I had known”.

What if the person is a good friend, a casual friend, or just an acquaintance? What if I never met them but yes was in the barn and overheard everything, which is not hard to do in that space?

I don’t think there is one answer for all situations on whether to speak up or not.

I think the idea of the friendly question is a good one. Sometimes the response can give us a read on if this person wants more information, or if they do not.

Yep I think we just had a thread on this … rather a major thread drift onto this. Still no perfect answers.

[anon15718925]

@OverandOnward

I think the idea of the friendly question is a good one. Sometimes the response can give us a read on if this person wants more information, or if they do not.

My only concern is this:

@demidq

That being said, I have decided I’ll ask new owner when the horse is due for his next set of lab work, and play all innocent and explain if she asks me what the lab work should be for. “Oh I was sure that Susie had told you about the EPM!”

Doesn’t to me sound totally friendly, at least written out as a plan. We don’t have tone of voice online, but this reads like they’re trying to throw the seller under the bus a little - and perhaps that’s fair and even warranted but I wouldn’t be so hasty, if I were OP, to put it exactly that way.

I do agree with being friendly and asking and giving advice (if asked/wanted) but I think I personally am much more a “mind your own business” type and that might color my perspective.

[OverandOnward]

Also side thought – If I’m in the barn my ears are on and damn straight I listen to everything I can hear. I want to know stuff. About the horses and the people. They are all part of the barn universe in which I am living and I want to be aware. I may not be participating in the conversation, may not look like I am listening, but there is no expectation of privacy in a barn setting.

It is my expectation that everyone in the barn is doing the same thing. I do know that some prefer not to hear all this stuff. But I assume that anything I say is not private unless I choose a private setting.

[anon15718925]

I mean, I want to know, learn and grow, but again there’s a difference to my mind between wanting to know for knowledge sake and gossip. EDIT TO ADD: You sound like the friendly sort who wants to know for the right reasons, e.g. learning and growing and so forth and just curiosity.

Maybe I’m more sensitive b/c I grew up riding at a backyard dump of a barn and the instructor, owner, and so on were absolutely catty people and so I can see this coming across poorly.

[demidq]

Last comment, because I don’t think I was clear.

Ours is a very small barn with only a few boarders. SELLER told me late August about horse’s EPM and treatment, usual chit chat about horses while grooming. Yes, I was there when the vet came, hard not to hear discussion while tacking up as my mare was in stall next to cross ties. I asked seller a few days later how horsie was doing, and she said ‘his titres are down enough that I can tell any buyer that he is healthy’.

Horse was due to ship out to a show as per seller 10 days ago, but never went. New owner told me 4 days ago she fell in love with him and bought him the day he was to ship out, so she has had him 10 days. First horse, previously rode once weekly at a lesson barn. We had a long chat about what she needs to get for him, and she asked about farriers and vets. I answered questions, and questions from her indicated very little horse knowledge. She is not giving him any meds or supplements.
None of this is gossip or second hand, I have not discussed with any other boarders.

I agree that I am assuming no PPE or advice about purchase, but it happened so fast that it’s unlikely, esp the PPE. Not many vets in the area and they are very busy.
I also agree that it’s none of my business . I do not give unsolicited advice, ever, and am good at biting my tongue. When writing my first post I didn’t mean to sound as tho I was asking for advice.
I’ll leave it at that.

[anon15718925]

@demidq

Ours is a very small barn with only a few boarders. SELLER told me in August about horse’s EPM dx and treatment, usual chit chat about horses while grooming. Yes, I was there when the vet came weeks later, hard not to hear discussion while tacking up as my mare was in stall next to cross ties. I asked seller a few days later how horsie was doing, told ‘his titres are down low enough that I can tell any buyer that he is healthy’.

Okay, completely understandable. I don’t see seller as being inherently shady from this, either, unless they indicated that they don’t plan to note the issue when saying “healthy.”

@demidq

Horse was due to ship out to a show as per seller 10 days ago, but never went. New owner told me 4 days ago she fell in love with him and bought him the day he was to ship out, so she has had him 10 days. First horse, previously rode once weekly at a lesson barn. We had a long chat about what she needs to get for him, and she asked about farriers and vets in the area. Questions from her indicated very little horse knowledge.

Fair but this doesn’t make me go, “oh no, the seller didn’t tell her about the horse’s recent medical issue, maybe I should find out if she knows.”

None of us start with a wealth of horse knowledge, that she’s asking about vets and farriers shows she’s willing to learn.

EDIT: also if she took lessons how do we all know she’s not working with a trainer to bring the horse along when the time is right for that. She clearly has the sense to ask people about vets and farriers so this doesn’t sound to me like someone utterly ignorant or unwilling to learn.

[lenapesadie]

Hi OP! Totally feel you on this one.

I’ve got two monopoly dollars that says seller didn’t disclose. Let us know if you find out for sure

[Scribbler]

@demidq

A nice, inexperienced young woman at our barn just bought her first horse- an OTTB that’s been off the track about 6 months. I think it was a very quick decision, no PPE and I’m almost certain she didn’t ask advice or bring someone experienced with her to try the horse. She plans to do low level trails with him, no training and can only come to the barn on the week-end.
The horse has just been treated for EPM, is very thin and has only had a few weeks of training because of the health issue.
I’m 99% sure the owner doesn’t know about the EPM, and I can’t think of any way to tell her. I did give her the name of the treating vet, and suggested she ask seller for a release of the records “for on-going care”.
UGGH.

Here’s the conundrum. Yes this could be a disaster, unless the new owner learns a lot very fast.

But the problem is, you have no authority or credibility unless you are the paid coach and mentor to a newbie, and even then not always.

The newbie does not have enough of a knowledge base to evaluate whether you are giving good advice or just rabbiting on about inessentials. Newbies can run around getting advice from everyone and just end up doing whatever they want or can afford anyhow.

It is not your responsibility to save this particular fool from the consequences of their bad choices, unless they are a family member or they are paying you for advice. And even then they may resent you.

So say what you want but don’t expect it will change anything.

[TheBigEasy]

Oh how I can commiserate with this, OP.
I can so relate.

I’m now at a point where I say “well, you can do X or you could do Y and here are pros and cons of each”.
I hope there’s someone else in her orbit that she can get good advice that she trust.

Personally, now when she asks me specifically “what would YOU do?” I’ll cite my answer and also say “you should also ask your BO” cause he’s knowledgeable and can either affirm my advice or offer up another alternative.

Also - another one in the camp who is always listening on vet/farrier days. The aisles are packed, everyone is jawing about their issues and treatments. I’ve learned a lot that way.

Good luck. I understand the need to vent.
It DOES get easier if you can look away and shake your head, assuming everyone is behaving in a safe manner and the animal is well cared for.

[anon15718925]

@Scribbler

But the problem is, you have no authority or credibility unless you are the paid coach and mentor to a newbie, and even then not always.

The newbie does not have enough of a knowledge base to evaluate whether you are giving good advice or just rabbiting on about inessentials. Newbies can run around getting advice from everyone and just end up doing whatever they want or can afford anyhow.

This.

At the end of the day, their money, they bought the horse, there’s not, IMO, any really friendly, sincere-sounding way to even bring this up with the newbie. They’ll learn, hopefully not by getting burned, but if they do, well, their problem.

EDIT: And we’re all basing this on the assumption the newbie is: 1. as green as OP says, 2. is not aware of the horse’s condition, at all, PPE or not (even if there wasn’t a PPE, from what OP has said, I’ve no reason to believe the seller was anything but honest. Not saying there aren’t dishonest sellers out there, there absolutely are, but going by the information OP has divulged, I feel this can’t be judged either direction, honest or dishonest.) - which might not be at all the case. This is an internet forum and ultimately we are getting one side of the story and it’s not even from someone involved in the story as anything more than an observer/bystander.

[Scribbler]

I listen to everyone I can at the barn but then go Google and sometimes ask questions on COTH because the average one horse ammie can get quite befuddled about diagnosis and cures. In my close friend group, we are all open and honest about things with our horses, but I don’t expect the broader group of barn acquaintances to tell me everything and I don’t tell them either. And a few folks like the track trainers hold their cards very close to their chests because resale.

That said, I would be very careful repeating things from a seller or owner to a buyer or leaser. Mostly because it is none of my business and stuff rebounds fast if it looks like you are undermining the seller or owner.

[chestnutmarebeware]

MYOB. You know a little of the story, but nowhere close to all of it. If the new owner asks your advice, fine. Otherwise the outcome—good or bad—is no concern of yours.

[Texarkana]

We were all inexperienced and stupid at some point.

Hoping for the best for the new owner and her horse.

I don’t know how much the woman paid for an underweight OTTB with a history of EPM, but I can’t imagine it would be enough to justify the cost of a PPE.

[OverandOnward]

For whatever it’s worth, a PPE won’t necessarily pick up EPM. If EPM is that obvious, the transaction probably didn’t even get as far as a PPE.

Seller was going by the antibodies and that’s probably as good a measure as any that the horse is healthy, as she said.

Although I agree that any buyer should know that a horse was treated for EPM, when, how, etc. details. Something for any owner to keep an eye on.

But there is a chance that it won’t matter. Not ideal, not necessarily a deal-breaker. Even if the EPM comes back, it is a whole new diagnosis and treatment routine then.

[carman_liz]

Just me being overly…me… I guess, but if someone said to me “their hoooves are doing better after that last laminitis bout, Dobbin can be rode again so I can tell a buyer they are healthy and sound.” Sounds shady to me and I would lose quite a bit of respect for said person. I would also be that person to say to the new owner, hey…that horse has been in a stall with soaked hay for x amount of months, may want to invest in a muzzle and haynets if you want to keep riding this horse…

Because if the new owner is inexperienced, takes people at their word, doesn’t know what to look for, I mean none of us were born knowing what we do about horse care, we learned from other people, experience, and yes probably a few karens and snarky barn ‘people’…but we still learned. If this new owner has never experienced the shadier side of horse buying and selling like most of us on here have witnessed in our lives, then not only are they at risk of wasting cash, who cares the price, $200 or $20,000, it is still money wasted. And…The dang horse is at risk of foundering and being in crippling pain, and losing their life…literally heart done beating, lungs done breathing … because some a hole seller figured meh, not my problem anymore.

I just took on a horse being kinda in the same boat as far as not the whole story on her, but I have been horsing it up my whole life so I know alot about a little, I don’t mind asking questions or for advice if it helps the horse, and I am nosy by nature so I tried to find out every little thing I could to help this horse out coming onto my place.

I’m sorry…snarky, snotty, said thru tears with a hug, matter of fact or just gently so it’s out there, letting a new owner know the facts about a horse, (especially if the seller flat out point blank said ya, he has epm, better for now…so yay I can sell him and wash my hands of this burden, because thats how it sounds the owner was acting at least) so they can take care of the horse properly and give it a good life till it is his time, is wayyy more important to me than being polite.

Me being silent and still getting to breathe fresh air while a horse takes his last breath…sorry I don’t deserve the air I am breathing then. I could have said something and maybe he would be still breathing right down the aisle from my pony with a gentle, not in pain and content look in his eye, taking his now aware owner for easy trail rides instead or if no other options available at some point going peacefully in owners lap vs wracked in pain and alone…

Sorry but many of us have seen horses die, the easy, hard, good and horrible ways… which is more worth staying silent and living with that choice while the horse is in the ground?

Getting off my soapbox to go feed my darlings now.

[HPFarmette]

I am sad for the newbie owner. She fell in love with a horse that, even if sound, would still be a project. I hope she has a compassionate patient trainer and I hope she stays safe.

[luvmyhackney]

Feel bad for the new owner.

But MYOB. I wouldn’t mention or discuss horses health issues unless asked.

[Tha_Ridge]

Hope someone quotes all this for posterity. But, the bottom line: none ya’ business. (Also, buying an OTTB without a PPE isn’t this bizarre, blasphemous thing. I don’t PPE any I buy and about 80% of my buyers don’t either. )

[OverandOnward]

@carman_liz

Sorry but many of us have seen horses die, the easy, hard, good and horrible ways… which is more worth staying silent and living with that choice while the horse is in the ground?

Getting off my soapbox to go feed my darlings now.

Going to cry a little bit now.