A new disaster in the making?

Mentally hugging you and making a silly snarky comment to make you laugh n smile!!

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If I thought talking to the buyer would make everything work out fine I’d say talk!

It’s just that IME newbie owners don’t know enough to know when I’m giving good advice. Even longer term owners don’t. Or the advice conflicts with someone else’s advice and they ignore me.

Since my horses are healthy, don’t founder or colic often or come up with wierd ligament issues etc, I don’t have as much credibility as someone whose horse is a health disaster because I have a healthy easy keeper :slight_smile:

Say what you want but don’t be invested in the newbie following your advice, and be aware it can come across as bad mouthing the seller.

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OP, I would personally want to know if I bought a horse previously treated for EPM and didn’t know about it. I would be upset if a seller didn’t disclose that.

I also don’t find it odd at all that OP knew some of the horse’s medical history. I’ve shared vet experiences with many friends, have also held friend’s horse for vet when she couldn’t be there or asked friends specifically about their horse’s medical case. I’ve also been in barn settings where a vet came and we all waited and could listen to the vet working with their horse because we were all in hearing proximity. That’s actually quite normal.

I’ve also had new riders ask me my opinion on horses that I said were lame yet they bought them anyway and then wondered a few weeks later why the horse had so many behavioral issues. All I could do was suggest vetting, pray they didn’t get killed and move on.

Hopefully the horse is sound enough for trail riding. Maybe they will be quiet and it will be a very good fit for them. Crazier things have happened.

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Am I the only one, who, despite, yes having seen a badly run barn that ultimately called itself a horse rescue that shouldn’t have owned goldfish, poor horsemanship, lacking care, the whole nine yards, I still land in camp, “not my horse, not my business.”

Some of you on here using all the bad or sad stuff you’ve seen (and I empathize and could share a few tales myself) as justification and I’m over here like, “unless there’s imminent danger, which, in this case, there does not seem to be, there’s not really a reason to bring this up and not really a way to bring it up that won’t turn it into gossip or come off as catty and badmouthing, even though OP knows this firsthand, etc. etc.”

We don’t know what kind of barn this is good, bad or in the middle, what the seller actually said to the buyer, what the buyer does or doesn’t know. We know OP’s assessment of the situation which, frankly, seems biased. Newbie but newbie has taken lessons (we don’t know the quality of those lessons), we don’t know past “newbie asked questions that make it clear she doesn’t know a lot” how much newbie does or doesn’t know or who all newbie might already have on their team/in their corner educating them. We just know newbie bought horsey and wants to do trail riding and has taken lessons and per OP doesn’t know a whole lot.

If I was this newbie and made a COTH account and saw this and somehow (would be unlikely to) realized it was about me and my horse, I’d probably avoid OP because they’re making an awful lot of assumptions about me, my horse and my situation and I, personally, strongly dislike folks making assumptions about me.

I maintain: there is zero way to bring this up unprompted that doesn’t sound like you’re badmouthing the seller, or generally being nosy/gossipy/catty. There is zero way to bring this up unprompted that ultimately will sound like you are genuinely and sincerely trying to help. A total newbie will absolutely not know enough to know if your advice is sound (or has OP forgotten what it’s like to be new) and there’s frankly enough of a wealth of sound info out there from more reliable sources than some so-n-so at the barn if Newbie is willing to learn. If newbie asks for your take on this, then give your honest opinion, with zero expectations they will listen or follow what you’ve said and zero expectations of changing their perception of horse and/or seller.

EDIT: Okay - so think for a sec, put yourself in a position as say, a new-to-horses person who has had some (quality) education already (because, why instantly assume the worst if this person has taken lessons and again, I know there are plenty of bad barns but OP doesn’t describe this barn as bad and I’ve no reason to assume newbie came from a bad situation), how you’d feel if you bought this horse and knew its condition, etc. and some overly-chipper barn lady trucked on up to you and said, anything, to the effect of, “did you know [horse’s name] has EPM?” Then think for a sec how you’d feel as the overly-chipper barn lady asking this if OP brushed you off, told you firmly they are aware (and/or handling it) in a tone indicating they don’t want further discussion, or weren’t aware but proceeded to ignore what you told them, anyway. End result would still be a game of “not my horse, not my business,” with more steps.

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I disagree, if you’re diplomatic and respectful you can. I expect unsolicited advice because…horse world. And OP isn’t even talking about advice, just awareness. If I were in the buyers shoes, I would be pissed if someone knew my horse had a health issue and didn’t speak up quite honestly. Obviously not ideal and maybe would have changed my thoughts on buying the horse or not, but at least I can make sure the horse is taken care of appropriately and decide if that works or doesn’t for me.

Scenario - OP asks if buyer is aware of the EPM diagnosis and let the convo go from there. If buyer isn’t aware then share the treatment info and more about what EPM is if buyer doesn’t know. No need to throw the seller under the bus; id keep that aspect out of the convo entirely. The buyer can then do whatever they want with that info. If they choose not to do anything, that is the point where you mind your business. I would honestly feel guilty about not saying something if it seems like the seller may not have with something like that.

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Given that history, you may know better than anyone else on this thread the people are on their own journey. What we think would be better for them, make them happier, is already not on their path. If that path is their choice or if it was chosen for them, it’s theirs and outside opinions rarely mean much.

And, while that may not be the most ideal path for the horse, usually if you look at it objectively the horse is no worse off. Except in the case of the disaster BO that you used to know.

But on the other hand we do not know that this information would be unwelcome. It’s just down to dealing with the fallout however it is received - if the owner receives it with welcome, unwelcome, or indifferent.

I ‘liked’ both comments, the myob comment above and this ‘I’d like to know’ comment.

Both are valid. It all depends on circumstances … and the kind of person you want to be. IMO neither is a wrong choice. But it might be best to put first importance on oneself rather than the buyer, and go from there.

Just an opinion.

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A good part of this type of stuff too, is reading the room. If the buyer is clearly displaying signs that she isn’t open to something of this nature, maybe don’t push it. If buyer is friendly/chatty/inquisitive etc, then it becomes easier to bring it up.

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This, exactly!

Yeah - I think that’s it exactly and you just said it more eloquently than I would’ve :laughing:. If people are open to conversations, by all means, go for it, but you need to, as @FjordBCRF pointed out, read the room. I think my read of the room, so to speak, from reading this thread, is more cautionary because I’m like, “we only know what OP chose to share, which is quite likely not the full story, we do not know thing one about Newbie or Seller beyond OP’s assessments,” so my take is one of “we don’t have a full picture (and likely never will) so don’t be so quick to say yes, OP, bring this up.”

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Personally, I would have brought it up when they were asking for recs for vets and farriers. I probably would have just plainly said “I know seller had X vet out treating him when he had the EPM flare up a few months ago, so if you use them they’ll already have some records on file for him.” I just would have stated it as a fact and not assuming they don’t know, and then if buyer has questions, they can ask or reach out to the vet about it.

Now with some space from the last convo, I might still use that as an in and say “hey another thing I thought of when you were asking about vets - I think seller used X vet for his EPM flare up. So you could always try them because they’ll have records on him to start.”

I’m the personality to say something though if the buyer has already asked advice on other things (which OP states they have).

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You can keep it from becoming a bad situation if you just inform the new ( and clueless) owner of the horses history of being treated for EPM now. It should have been disclosed before the sale .

That way the new owner can read up and be aware if there are any symptoms in the future and get medical treatment asap.

If you were that owner wouldn’t you want to know?

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That, frankly, is probably the best way to bring it up.

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Thing is, again, from what OP has posted, We. Don’t. Know. what the newbie who bought this horse does or doesn’t know. OP literally came here to vent, most everyone on here misunderstood and assumed OP wanted advice b/c this is an internet forum and what the type of folks who inhabit internet forums are prone to doing if there’s not clear labeling of “vent” somewhere in the initial post.

Quote for posterity after finding @Tha_Ridge’s post again.

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This makes it pretty clear that it is a good possibility the new owner does not know @anon15718925.

Even if she does know and OP is unaware , what is the harm in making sure she does know?

OP wasn’t asking for advice but with an issue like this you have to expect to get it. Wanted or not.

My first horse had white line so bad when I bought her that her foot was resected to within an inch of the coronary band. The seller found out when the horse was reset prior to being shipped my way. Instead of riding, I long-lined her for 6 or 9 months. BTW, I learned how to long line real quick.

Point is, at some point someone could have said ‘poor newbie owner’. The mare was a bitch, but she was also fantastic.

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I think there are plenty of ways to casually bring it up, just so they’re aware. You could do the vet recommendation as @Rel6 suggested, or just work it into a barn story like “he always made me laugh when he made faces before getting his EPM meds last summer”. This may be followed by the new owner asking what EPM is, or maybe they just keep going with the conversation and you can assume they already know or don’t care. Either way, you’ve put it out there. Then, back off and MYOB and let them pursue it with the vet, BO or former owner, or let them blissfully ignore it and hope for the best.

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Good point!

I think what’s bothered me here is OP didn’t really phrase it as “causally working it in” and I, personally, was getting presumptive vibes/assumption-making vibes where an awful lot hinged on “seller can’t possibly have mentioned this” and “new horse owner is utterly naive and clueless,” and from my perspective, getting only OP’s side of the story, we have zero way of knowing exactly how accurate either of those assumptions are. Not to say they’re inaccurate. That, I feel, is why I responded as I did, because the way OP and others put it was a more direct attack, this is a bit less direct and less rooted in assumptions about the seller and the buyer and tips the buyer off IF the seller was dishonest and the buyer can then address that matter as they see fit.

EDIT: any of the few ways on here that bring it up without coming across as presumptive or badmouthing are probably the only ways to bring it up.

IMO, EPM creates a safety issue that needs to be disclosed. 28 years ago, I was interested in buying a horse that my trainer had restarted off the track. He had been treated for EPM and was deemed “cured.” I knew nothing about EPM, but heard the “he’s fine” part. I was trotting that horse in a ring with perfect footing. He dropped like a stone and kicked me twice getting up. I was 8 weeks pregnant at the time (my baby was fine). Given what I’ve read about EPM since then, I was stupid to have not researched it first. Had I known more about it, I would never have gotten on him. A good number of horses relapse within the first two years, and a hefty percentage never fully recover.

If I were a buyer, I would want someone to tell me the horse had been treated for EPM, but my experiences may influence my feelings.

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You are right, except that you weren’t stupid. I live in an area that has a lot of EPM but I had never really heard of it until I had a horse that had it.

At this point in time, EPM is a very under-recognized and under-acknowledged risk to horse health. We teach about so many things and how to avoid them – colic; bowed tendons; navicular / laminitis; etc. & so on.

But in my experience, EPM is rarely mentioned in the ‘general horse education’ category. But it should be. Especially in the geographic areas that it is prevalent – a large segment of the U.S.

There is no knowing how much undiagnosed EPM is out there when most owners have never been aware of EPM.

It is not the owners’ fault that they never heard of EPM. When we teach horsemanship and horse health, we are not teaching EPM as we should.

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