A new disaster in the making?

[findeight]

On a slightly different angle here…might not be something you want to hear but a fact in boarding barns.

OP boards at a small barn, another boarder sells a recently EPM treated horse to a new boarder, possibly without disclosure. Thats all we really know, no details.

So you have 3 boarders at a small barn involved with this situation. OP is likely going to see and hear many more things as new owner proceeds with what sounds like a long journey with a textbook (possibly unsuitable) long term project horse.

OP, do you really want to stir this pot? Just think about it.

[OverandOnward]

So, hypothetical situation …

If each one of us were in the situation of being a new owner who was unaware of a significant vet issue in the past … regardless of our horse background, we could be an expert or a beginner … but the key thing is that hypothetically we bought a horse not knowing about a significant past vet issue that may or may not cause future issues …

Do we want someone who is either a stranger or just a casual barn acquaintance to inform us of what we don’t know?

Would we only want to hear it from someone we know well and trust? Or do we want anyone to inform us at all?

I honestly don’t have a firm opinion on this. To me it is so dependent on the overall situation, and what there is to gain and to lose – and that varies by context.

My default position is that I want to know everything. But honestly I’m not sure what I would think about someone who I feel that I barely know giving me information like that.

Would I fully believe them? Would I wonder what other agendas they are pursing? I have known some real pot-stirrers who overreact to everything because they enjoy drama, or because they are trying to put themselves ahead by pulling others down. But I’ve also known people who went out of their way to share knowledge or help, and it did help a great deal, things were better because of their effort. Anyway. My reaction would be entirely situational.

[Scribbler]

@OverandOnward

So, hypothetical situation …

If each one of us were in the situation of being a new owner who was unaware of a significant vet issue in the past … regardless of our horse background, we could be an expert or a beginner … but the key thing is that hypothetically we bought a horse not knowing about a significant past vet issue that may or may not cause future issues …

Do we want someone who is either a stranger or just a casual barn acquaintance to inform us of what we don’t know?

Would we only want to hear it from someone we know well and trust? Or do we want anyone to inform us at all?

I honestly don’t have a firm opinion on this. To me it is so dependent on the overall situation, and what there is to gain and to lose – and that varies by context.

My default position is that I want to know everything. But honestly I’m not sure what I would think about someone who I feel that I barely know giving me information like that.

Would I fully believe them? Would I wonder what other agendas they are pursing? I have known some real pot-stirrers who overreact to everything because they enjoy drama, or because they are trying to put themselves ahead by pulling others down. But I’ve also known people who went out of their way to share knowledge or help, and it did help a great deal, things were better because of their effort. Anyway. My reaction would be entirely situational.

About 60 per cent maybe more of what I hear second or third hand at the barn is missing significant details, confused, or outright self serving lies or obfuscation. Listen but verify verify verify. So having people “tell you things” is a very mixed experience.

[carman_liz]

I guess if it was me I would want to know and if I was worried about believing them I would try to make sure I knew which vet diagnosed. Then call them and ask for records, the worst they can tell me is no?

[demidq]

Quick update. I am in the “do as you would be done by” camp. I have been in the situation where important info was withheld about a horse that I bought, and I was definitely burned.
I did not see new owner this weekend, so I left a note in her locker asking her to call me. Not ideal, but I would like to speak to her sooner rather than later. I do know the treating vet, and will give new owner that info.

[Warmblood1]

@OverandOnward

Do we want someone who is either a stranger or just a casual barn acquaintance to inform us of what we don’t know?

Would we only want to hear it from someone we know well and trust? Or do we want anyone to inform us at all?

I’m a proponent of the horse. My goal as a horseperson is to keep my own ego in check and always do right by the horse. Maybe the new owner finds out about the horse’s previous issues in a way that isn’t perfect but hopefully they are a good enough horseperson to put that aside and accept and acknowledge that having the information is beneficial. I think knowledge is power in this situation and the owner knowing of this diagnosis could be highly beneficial should EPM not have been completely resolved. It gives the owner insight as well as opportunity to request prior medical records. Having the knowledge of the horse’s previous diagnosis could also save the new owner a lot of money in diagnostics should issues with EPM return. While they may be new to horses, they may respond really well to the information and turn it into a valuable learning experience.

[anon15718925]

Might be my own jadedness coming through but:

1. Something like this will definitely come up at horse’s next vet appt. and it sounds like horse is checked out pretty regularly.

2. I would not want to hear this from a stranger/casual barn acquaintance. I would, if told by a stranger/casual barn acquaintance, probably, yes, personally question (as in directly approach and ask) the seller re. horse’s condition, but it’d also maybe put me on alert to stranger/casual barn acquaintance potentially being nosy/a pot stirrer/someone who wants to put others down, if they didn’t word it carefully because I’ve seen barn drama before.

@Scribbler

About 60 per cent maybe more of what I hear second or third hand at the barn is missing significant details, confused, or outright self serving lies or obfuscation. Listen but verify verify verify. So having people “tell you things” is a very mixed experience.

Shoot, this is just me, period with anything in life at this point. “Verify everything.”

@demidq

Quick update. I am in the “do as you would be done by” camp. I have been in the situation where important info was withheld about a horse that I bought, and I was definitely burned.
I did not see new owner this weekend, so I left a note in her locker asking her to call me. Not ideal, but I would like to speak to her sooner rather than later. I do know the treating vet, and will give new owner that info.

Okay, WHY may I ask, are you so utterly convinced of this that you feel the need to have the new owner call you and what makes you think she will call you? Telling her if you happen to see her, sure, if you feel so obligated to do so, but otherwise, so many on here have said some variation of MYOB.

I’m a proponent of the horse, I just do not see why there is this utter conviction that the seller is automatically shady and didn’t disclose the horse’s condition and newbie owner is getting taken for a ride, so to speak. We only have @demidq’s side of the story, and given this is the internet, there’s the off-chance it’s not the true, complete picture and might in fact be quite lopsided.

EDIT: I sense a disaster in the making here alright but maybe not in the new owner’s situation. Guess time will tell.

EDIT 2: I do understand what EPM is and that it is a significant health issue, but again, this is not your horse, you are not the seller, you only know what you’ve been told by the seller prior to the horse being sold or newbie buyer coming on the scene, you do not know what the buyer does or does not know and this whole pile of drama coming down the pipeline here is hinging on an awful lot of assumptions.

[trubandloki]

@anon15718925

Something like this will definitely come up at horse’s next vet appt. and it sounds like horse is checked out pretty regularly.

How will it come up at the next vet appointment, exactly?
That would require the new owner to use the same vet as the old owner did, right?

[anon15718925]

Do we see anything indicating it won’t be the same vet?

My only problem with this is it hinges from my standpoint as “random forum posting internet stranger” on about a million assumptions like:

1. We don’t know what the seller told the buyer.
2. We don’t know that the buyer is unaware.
3. We don’t know that the buyer isn’t using the same vet (they’re at the same barn? If newbie got vet recs from seller or anyone else, it’s possible they’re using the same vet. Unless you want to make another assumption and assume buyer and vet are in cahoots to fleece the noob, separate a fool from their money and offload horsey and horsey’s problems on to someone else?)

That’s where I have the problem. The assumptions. If OP is oh-so-confident the buyer doesn’t know, then don’t go to an internet forum and vent to strangers and then complain and say she didn’t want advice when said strangers go, “uh, you’re making a lot of assumptions here,” and advise her to not tell or vice versa, agree w/her assumptions and advise her to tell.

I have zero problems telling this person if you can reasonably conclude they are wholly and completely unaware and seller is known to be dishonest. But from what OP has posted, we don’t know if the seller has a rep for being dishonest. We’re going off of OP’s statement that the newbie brought the horse very quickly because she “fell in love” with horsey. That’s it.

[trubandloki]

@anon15718925

Do we see anything indicating it won’t be the same vet?

I do not see anything that says it will be the same vet.
The OP says they are willing to tell the owner who the previously treating vet was, so that implies to me that there are options for more than just this vet that the new owner could use.

I do not find the OP’s question nefarious, it is a pretty common type of thread around here.

@anon15718925

I have zero problems telling this person if you can reasonably conclude they are wholly and completely unaware and seller is known to be dishonest. But from what OP has posted, we don’t know if the seller has a rep for being dishonest. We’re going off of OP’s statement that the newbie brought the horse very quickly because she “fell in love” with horsey. That’s it.

I am a firm believer in mind your own business. I also hate for a horse to have an issue simply because the owner did not know something.
But I do not think there is some need for the seller to be dishonest for a boarder to have a conversation with another boarder when one of them knows the horse and the other is new to horses.

It is pretty simply - Hey Susie, so excited that you bought Dobbin. Dobbin always makes the silliest faces at me when I am in the aisle. Is it OK with you if I still give Dobbin a peppermint in the evening when I am giving my horse one? Are you planning on using Vet Smith? That is who the previous owner used. They have his whole history since Previous Owner got Dobbin. (And if you really want to just say it you can add - ) Vet Smith is who handled Dobbin’s EPM so they probably are a good choice.

[anon15718925]

Okay - I do see where you’re coming from, I just, the way OP initially put it, they weren’t even sure how to approach the new owner and came across as maybe not having tact as their first instinct.

The way you put it is tactful.

[findeight]

Ummmmm….speaking of assumptions, EPM is not a disease, its a parasite. Its very hard, and expensive, to diagnose. Used to be a spinal tap, heard theres something else out there now. There are specific drug protocols used to eradicate them, also expensive. Many horses on this continent do carry them but they never cause any symptoms, some aren’t so lucky, anecdotally, IME, recently imported WBs can get hit really hard.

Fact many assume it’s EPM based on symptoms, skip the diagnostics and treat. But most of those do use the specific EPM targeted drugs, not routine treatments for bacterial and/or viral infection since its not a bug or virus, its parasites. Does OP know how the EPM was confirmed to the extent possible or if it was a guess based on symptoms?

On the vet thing, sellers vet is not going to release records paid for by seller to anybody except seller. They won’t discuss the case with anybody without sellers specific, preferably written consent. Suggesting new owner talk old owners vet is not helpful unless that vet continues to be primary vet for new owner, new owner can bring it up when vet comes for new lab work. And does OP know that lab work has been scheduled or just assuming it has and its the same vet?

OP has said she left her # for new owner. That’s fine. Great. Thats appropriate. But if she does not call back or initiate the conversation in person next time she’s out? She does not want OPs input so drop it.

[OverandOnward]

@anon15718925

Something like this will definitely come up at horse’s next vet appt. and it sounds like horse is checked out pretty regularly.

No it won’t. Past EPM is undetectable.

I’d agree with just letting a future vet exam carry the news if I knew a past EPM was something that would be obvious on every future vet exam. But it is invisible.

Unless someone thinks there is a reason to pull an antibody test, which around here is $250. Even then the antibodies may not remain strong after some number of months. It’s just not something any vet suggests on a routine exam or a PPE of a horse with no symptoms.

A horse may be moved along out of a training program because of an EPM history. The owner/trainer doesn’t want a horse that is sometimes good to go but sometimes not. But unless the seller discloses, the next buyer has no way of knowing an asymptomatic horse has a past history of EPM.

Even if the horse shows signs of another round of EPM, the past history still won’t be diagnosable. The owner is likely to think this is the first time. Vets and owners are likely to make different decisions if a horse is having repeat EPM vs. first-time EPM.

And a severe case can cause ramifications down the line if there was permanent damage, but an owner who doesn’t know won’t be looking for that. The next vet will have no way of knowing, either. A horse has to be pretty definitely symptomatic before people starting thinking ‘EPM’. And even then there are other potential causes of those symptoms so EPM may not be the first guess - unless we know there is a history. That’s the problem with non-disclosure.

@findeight

EPM is not a disease, its a parasite. Its very hard, and expensive, to diagnose.

And once a horse has had it once, it can reoccur, although it doesn’t always. Sometimes it is hard to clear EPM even if the horse seems to be recovered. It’s not immediately obvious that EPM is the symptom cause unless we know there is a history.

This is the crux of the issue with disclosure.

@findeight

OP has said she left her # for new owner. That’s fine. Great. Thats appropriate. But if she does not call back or initiate the conversation in person next time she’s out? She does not want OPs input so drop it.

Agree with that. No reason to push.

New owner may already know what this is about.

[anon15718925]

@OverandOnward

That’s the problem with non-disclosure.

I understand that, my problem is with the assumption that the seller didn’t disclose it based purely on OP telling us “the seller said the horse could be sold as healthy.” We don’t know the seller didn’t say “hey, newbie buyer, Horsey has had EPM, they have recovered for now but this could crop up down the line. I recommend such-n-such vet.”

THAT is what my problem is. The end. Finis. OP clearly isn’t listening to anyone and will do what she feels is best, period.

[OverandOnward]

@anon15718925

I understand that, my problem is with the assumption that the seller didn’t disclose it based purely on OP telling us “the seller said the horse could be sold as healthy.” We don’t know the seller didn’t say “hey, newbie buyer, Horsey has had EPM, they have recovered for now but this could crop up down the line. I recommend such-n-such vet.”

I don’t disagree with this point. I have the same question.

The discussion is if there is a reasonable and well-founded suspicion that the seller didn’t disclose. I’m ambivalent on what to do if that is the case. And yes, I agree that we do not know if such a suspicion is reasonable.

Some people are the hands-off type. That’s fine, I wouldn’t say it’s wrong. Other people can’t just stand there and watch a bad situation possibly develop for someone else and say nothing. I’m not sure they are wrong, either. Both frames of mind have a place.

At this point whatever happens is what happens. Will be interested in the rest of the story, if it is shared.

[demidq]

Thank you, all. I have read all the replies and have thought hard about what I definitely know vs what I guess or assume.
Seller restarts and sells OTTBs as a business.
No, I don’t know if she disclosed horse’s medical history to new owner.
Yes, I can be tactful when sharing information- my profession has demanded it for many years.
No I don’t want to be caught up in barn drama or gossip.
If new owner already knows horse’s history, great.
If she doesn’t and I tell her it may cause her to be angry with seller. If seller then is angry with me, I don’t really care.
If new owner thinks I am a busybody or pot stirrer I don’t really care because I will have done what I wish someone had done for me when I bought a horse with severe problems.
If new owner doesn’t contact me I’ll leave it there. I have no intention of talking about this with anyone else at the barn.
I think this thread should stop here.

[OverandOnward]

@demidq

If new owner thinks I am a busybody or pot stirrer I don’t really care because I will have done what I wish someone had done for me when I bought a horse with severe problems.
If new owner doesn’t contact me I’ll leave it there. I have no intention of talking about this with anyone else at the barn.

Perfect way to approach what you want to do.

@demidq

I think this thread should stop here.

This is COTH.

You opened the gates. Maybe didn’t understand this forum? Once the gates are open, the horses are as good as gone beyond anyone’s control.

Good luck. I hope it works out well in the end for everyone. Fingers crossed.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP
I do think it could be a disaster. For you.
The seller has a relationship with BO/BM otherwise the horse wouldn’t be at your barn.

The newbie may or may not be cognizant of just how boarding barns work.

Newbie may truly not know about a pre-existing condition and decide to get into it with the seller,

If the seller finds out who it was that disclosed (and they will) it will not be good for that person.

Said person could find themselves looking for a new barn forewith.

Also, you can’t assume newbie will be grateful for said information.

[findeight]

Yes, no matter how small, big, rustic or fancy the barn, “unselling” somebody else’s sale horse or casting shadows on a recently sold horse? Particularly if seller is or has a business relationship with BO/BM or resident trainer? Not conducive to whoever spread the story remaining at said barn.

Think about it, OP tells new owner, new owner goes back to seller saying she sold her a sick horse. Seller asks how she knows its sick. New owner says OP told her. Seller goes to BO/ BM and complains OP is spreading false information and seller will no longer keep her sale horses there. What do you suppose will happen?

Not worth it unless you are ready to move. Shame to take that risk based on on so many assumptions and so little direct knowledge.

IIWY, stop responding on here. It will slide off page 1 into oblivion. Strongly suggest you do so. No such thing as anonymity on the net. Theres enough details here at least one of the other people at your barn know about this thread and can figure out it’s you talking about them.

Deleting wont help or hide anything if its been quoted. Why I rarely ever delete, no point to it. Just let this thread go too.

[Bogie]

@OverandOnward

Do we want someone who is either a stranger or just a casual barn acquaintance to inform us of what we don’t know?

Would we only want to hear it from someone we know well and trust? Or do we want anyone to inform us at all?

Yes, I want to know. A horse’s past medical history is very important to me.

Many years ago, I went to look at a horse that was for sale. I rode her, liked her and left a deposit. Part of my discussion with the owner included the horse’s medical history and I was told she’d been sound and healthy.

A few days later, another boarder at my barn mentioned that she heard (probably from the trainer), I’d looked at said horse. She asked me if the current owner had mentioned the extensive downtime in the past year due to an undiagnosed issue.

I passed on the horse.

Had the owner been upfront with me and shared the history, I might have asked to speak to the vet or have my vet speak to her vet. The fact that it was not disclosed, made me uncomfortable with the situation.