A new dominant horse causes trouble in existing herd of 2.... H E L P

[owlicks91]

Bit of back story -
My horses :
15 y/o Paint Horse Gelding
25 y/o Quarter Horse Gelding

I got both these guys 8 years ago as a first time horse owner, with very little direction at the time. So I’m one of those that figured everything out along the way…
I’m not sure if it’s just the area I’m in, but most the equestrians I meet are total scum… ANYWAYS…

I recently adopted a rescue horse. A 5 y/o untrained Morgan Horse Gelding! He’s wonderful and everything I wanted in a horse…Well kind of… He IS wonderful and everything I wanted in a horse, but not what my original two wanted AT ALL. Basically the rescue organization lied about his disposition in the herd.

On his own he is the sweetest thing!
But put him out with my other horses and he can be quite aggressive towards the herd current leader - my senior. Especially around food. (Makes sense because he was found abandoned with little food). The new has caused numerous injuries to my old man, to the point where I keep the separated now for his safety. However everyone gets along great with the paint!

How long does it usually take for things to settle between dominant horses?
Any tips on what kind of process I should take?
Is this ever going to get better??

I have the option to return him to the rescue… But I love this horse and don’t want to have to do that

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=owlicks91;8817850]
Bit of back story -
My horses :
15 y/o Paint Horse Gelding
25 y/o Quarter Horse Gelding

I got both these guys 8 years ago as a first time horse owner, with very little direction at the time. So I’m one of those that figured everything out along the way…
I’m not sure if it’s just the area I’m in, but most the equestrians I meet are total scum… ANYWAYS…

I recently adopted a rescue horse. A 5 y/o untrained Morgan Horse Gelding! He’s wonderful and everything I wanted in a horse…Well kind of… He IS wonderful and everything I wanted in a horse, but not what my original two wanted AT ALL. Basically the rescue organization lied about his disposition in the herd.

On his own he is the sweetest thing!
But put him out with my other horses and he can be quite aggressive towards the herd current leader - my senior. Especially around food. (Makes sense because he was found abandoned with little food). The new has caused numerous injuries to my old man, to the point where I keep the separated now for his safety. However everyone gets along great with the paint!

How long does it usually take for things to settle between dominant horses?
Any tips on what kind of process I should take?
Is this ever going to get better??

I have the option to return him to the rescue… But I love this horse and don’t want to have to do that :([/QUOTE]

You NEVER, EVER know how herd dynamics will shake out until you try them together. No one can tell you that, so please don’t blame the “rescue.” It all depends on how pushy, hungry, submissive, laid-back, or intelligent every one of the players is in the new band. There is NO way to predict it in advance!

Now, if your old guys are not getting beaten up, run around or put through the fences, you don’t have a major problem in all likelihood. If someone IS getting marked up, you did the right thing to pull him out. The biggest issue will be keeping the 5-year-old from getting more than his share of food via taking it away from your older guy(s). Given that older guys (particularly your 25-year old) take longer to eat and frequently need more, Job 1 is to find a way to separate them for eating grain. This can be as simple as tying the youngster to a fence post while he eats, and letting him loose when the others are finished.

Hay should be placed in piles spread VERY wide apart, as in more than 50 feet so that one horse cannot physically “guard” more than one hay-pile at a time. To be even safer, always put out one more hay pile than the number of horses, so in your case, at least 4.

With a Morgan in particular, you may very quickly run into the problem of him getting way too fat on the same pasture that works perfectly for other breeds. Be looking for a place where you can fence in a smaller paddock for Junior in case he needs to be restricted part of the time–and you could also feed him in there which would solve the above problem a little more expensively.

Once a pecking order is formed (usually within 3 hours to 3 days), it generally stands for as long as that herd are together with no additions or subtractions. EVERY horse added/subtracted changes the dynamic.

I have found that herd leadership most commonly depends on two things: Intelligence, and the willingness to TAKE the lead. Being herd leader demands a higher level of vigilance and awareness on the part of that horse, and dominant individuals are often excellent specimens of their breed. But be aware as you work with this dominant youngster that he may “try you out” to see if he can boss YOU, so be ready to correct any incipient “pushy” behavior and do not hand feed him or let him rub on you, etc. As an aside, some horses wind up in “rescues” for a REASON, so don’t let “love” blind you to reality if you find he’s behaviorally messed up. You really don’t know what you’ve got here–just like a dog from the pound.

I recently added a 4 year old mare to one of my herds, who within a day not only trumped the “sentry” who was chasing her around the field and has now become her best buddy, but also bloodlessly trumped the 25-year old who’d been undisputed king for YEARS. He just shrugged and gave her the job, and while she’s free with her heels, all quieted down to “normal” within a week.

NONE of this is what I would call “bad actor” behavior–but if you see savaging, chasing, kicking to the point of knocking down, running them into the fences, or “stallion” like behaviors beyond normal pecking order sorting, yank him out fast! That stuff gets worse over time, not better.

[Scribbler]

How long have you had the Morgan? Two days, a week, months?

How big is the area they are in? Is it a true pasture, where the horses have room to get away from each other? Or is it more paddock size, where the horses can back each other into a corner and fight?

What do you mean by injuries? Little cuts and scrapes, or something worrisome?

When they kick at each other, do they make contact, or just threaten?

How do you feed them? One big hay pile, or do you toss out separate piles for each horse? Standard practice feeding hay in a field is, a pile for each horse, or even one more pile than the total number of horses. Well-spaced. That way, even if the bossy boots horse wants to get all the food, he can’t; they will just play musical chairs with the hay.

And obviously, have them contained or separated in some way for grain, don’t try to feed them all in one enclosure for this.

Horses will play rough while they sort out their heirarchies.

If there is room to escape each other, and if you feed in a way that minimizes conflict, that certainly helps.

There are rare cases of horses that cannot go out on pasture with other horses, or certain other horses, but these are rare.

[owlicks91]

Thanks for your reply!

In regards of not blaming the rescue… It was discovered in medical records that were withheld until I adopted the horse, that the he was KNOWN to be dominant. So in this case it really was them. I am very cautious about the 25 y/o, and was very upfront and clear that the horse I adopted would need to be one who generally tends to be more timid.

There is no issue with food as Junior is fed separate from Teenie and Senior. The two have been together since the birth of Teenie, and Senior has always been the lead. Pasture is a luxury here and only allowed for a few hours a day. Teenie is also an easy keeper.

As stated Senior has been seriously kicked once to the point of a puncture wound. (I have no idea how that works…) Junior still kicks, bites and screams at Senior, but no injuries for now… But I’ve also been out there supervising incase I need to break it up. The first serious kick was when I left for 5 minutes.

So right now they are separated, should I keep them that way and introduce them slowly, or just put them all in the main area together? (Dry lot with 16x24 run in shed, all four sides are covered save for a 16ft opening)

[owlicks91]

Just replied most of this info in another reply before I saw this. Except how long I’ve had the Morgan - It has been 3 weeks.

[ladyj79]

Is there a medical test for dominant personality??

[Sugarwells]

The rescue could not predict what the dynamics would be in a new living situation with new horses.

It is very possible that he was more timid at the rescue, but that means nothing now that everything has changed for the new horse.

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=owlicks91;8817883]
Thanks for your reply!

In regards of not blaming the rescue… It was discovered in medical records that were withheld until I adopted the horse, that the he was KNOWN to be dominant. So in this case it really was them. I am very cautious about the 25 y/o, and was very upfront and clear that the horse I adopted would need to be one who generally tends to be more timid.

So right now they are separated, should I keep them that way and introduce them slowly, or just put them all in the main area together? (Dry lot with 16x24 run in shed, all four sides are covered save for a 16ft opening)[/QUOTE]

One horse can be at the bottom of the pecking order in one place and be a fire breathing dragon at the next. You have no way of knowing until you put them together. The reverse can also happen and a dominant one is fine with not being the leader. It all depends on the horses you put together.

Did you give them time with a shared fence line before throwing the morgan in?

Dry lots tend to be pretty small in size, unless yours is several acres I might think of keeping them separated.

[invinoveritas]

Separate him from the other 2 across some hotwire. He’s probably feeling insecure and taking it out on the old guy.

Horses do better in pairs. So think about getting your morgan his own buddy. One can never have too many horses.:lol:

I’ve seen a lot of herd dynamics change often even without a new horse coming in. My horses have been in small herds and herds of over 20 horses, in herds of mostly geldings and herds of lots of mares. It’s stressful for all of them. Like the new kid in school who either gets picked on or becomes the bully.

So separate them and have them able to pick at each other across the wire.

[AKB]

I would keep them separated with a shared fence line for a few months. Make sure everyone has access to shelter, even if you have to put up another run in shed.

I bought a 7 year old about 4 months ago. My 18 year old was very aggressive towards him, despite having them in adjacent paddocks for a couple of weeks. The 18 year old kept kicking apart oak fence boards. I ended up sending the 18 year old to the neighbor’s house for a month. After he returned, the 7 year old and 13 year old had bonded. The 18 year old decided to behave. Now, they are all getting along.

You can make this work. Just be very careful. Don’t get yourself or the horses hurt.

[Ticker]

You may never be able to keep them all together since, by your own words, your oldster is at risk for injury. I had one of my old horses out with a young gelding that he had been paired with since weaning and the young horse hurt my old guy to the point that they were separated permenately. You just never know.

If you do get another horse to pair up your new gelding, there is nothing like a mare to put ‘manners’ on a bossy gelding.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8817970]
Is there a medical test for dominate personality??[/QUOTE]

No, but there IS one for a testosterone level that would indicate an undescended testicle–and such “rig” or cryptorchid status WOULD be a PRIME reason why an otherwise well-bred young horse could be dumped to an auction or other bad situation. If he’s a “rig,” chances are the breeder wouldn’t foot the bill for an abdominal castration; and there’s possibly an answer to the whole conundrum.

In which case, OP must manage Junior as a stallion until SHE foots the bill for surgery–or sends him back to point of origin.

I would definitely pursue this possibility with your own vet ASAP for liability reasons never mind all the others! :eek:

Otherwise, I’d ask to see any veterinary record proclaiming the horse “dominant.” For that to make it into a horse’s file, either he was a handling problem for someone to a degree that it was brought to a vet’s attention, or he may have an out-and-out defective temperament. Some of them DO have a “screw loose,” and those are at very high risk of going down a bad road or hurting someone.

ALWAYS put human safety first–even if it means sending him back and getting a different horse.

[owlicks91]

Regarding the rescue - There is specific medical records stating this horse is very dominant.

Regarding food - Senior and Teenie are fed separately from Junior.

1. Because they are in seperate areas
2. Because I don’t think they’re ready to eat together yet and
3. Junior has shown food aggression even from across the electric fence line.

Living area - We live on 10 acres so pastures and the dry lot are respectively 1 acre. Senior and Teenie live in the dry lot, while Junior is currently in a temporarily fenced off portion of the pasture (where grass does not grow).

How it went down:
1st day - Slight squealing, curious & happy horses, only allowed to see each other from adjoining electric fence line.
1st week - Once horses settled down I let them touch noses over a non electric gate.
Again, some squealing but no biting attempts or ill tempers.
2nd week - Horses spent lots of time together from either side of the fence, usually sleeping peacefully, or trying to touch noses without getting shocked. So I decided to put them all out together, and it went great. Some fuss was had over who was the leader, but it was minor, with very little contact. Then Senior was cornered and Junior double barrel kicked him leaving him with a decent sized wound. Took about a week for it to clear up, and in that time they were not turned out to pasture. (It was muddy and Senior needed his wound to stay clean, and didn’t need to tear it further.)
3rd week (present) - Now everyone is whatever about each other, except when they’re together. Junior charged Senior, and took a big bite out of his bum. sigh There was a bit of a hay flake that had gotten into the pasture and Junior had to have it as his own.

Junior is very respectful of me, and isn’t really dominant around me either.

Basically what I want to know - Is there hope? Or are they doomed to be apart?
Keep trying or leave it be?

[Angela_Freda]

I am with Lady E, get him tested to be sure he’s not still a stallion.
Yes you may have to always keep them separate.

Am I reading your post right, you have 10 acres total, but there are only a dry lot [of one acre] and pasture [also one acre]?

[seabreeze]

[QUOTE=owlicks91;8817883]
Thanks for your reply!

In regards of not blaming the rescue… It was discovered in medical records that were withheld until I adopted the horse, that the he was KNOWN to be dominant. So in this case it really was them. I am very cautious about the 25 y/o, and was very upfront and clear that the horse I adopted would need to be one who generally tends to be more timid.

So right now they are separated, should I keep them that way and introduce them slowly, or just put them all in the main area together? (Dry lot with 16x24 run in shed, all four sides are covered save for a 16ft opening)[/QUOTE]

One: Every herd has a unique dynamic. A dominant horse in one herd might not be dominant in another. That is something you just never know, plain and simple. I never give much weight to someone’s description of a horse’s herd behavior if I’m considering getting the horse because I know he can be a totally different animal in a new herd.

Two: Your main area is a dry lot, which you say is about an acre. That isn’t much room for three horses when one is displaying aggressive behavior. Open up more pastures so they have room to stay away from one another or keep them separate.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Best horse on my farm is a food dominant/aggressive horse. And I mean he is a raging Ahole.

I manage it. He is separated at feeding. There is always hay (round bale) and he does share. He will always be aggressive at feeding and the only way to safely manage it is to keep him separated. It is a pain, it cramps my style but so worth it for having him around.

For him- he is the first one in (if I bring everyone in) and the last one out.