“Doesn’t move like a dressage horse”

[KBC]

Purely as a discussion point, because sometimes I read something and a point sticks in my brain, and I just want to unravel it a bit…

I’m currently looking for a new horse, I compete in Western Dressage, well when there are shows anyway. But I want more than that, I want a horse I can kind of do anything on, trail ride, Working Eq, maybe some Western Classes, or just jump on and enjoy.

So with that kind of in mind…at what point do you want a horse who moves “like a dressage horse” At Intro and Basic, I would argue any horse can do it. Level 1 asks more questions, but still any horse should be able to a workmanlike test. Level 2, yes this is where the first big questions are asked, asking for collection, but how much of that is movement and how much the mind.

Maybe going to look at the paint here, and have had comments that “she doesn’t move like a dressage horse” now I can’t agree or disagree, because I would need to see a whole lot more of her, before making any decisions, it takes me a while.

https://youtu.be/lvT6eh_s028

[gailbyrd]

@KBC

Purely as a discussion point, because sometimes I read something and a point sticks in my brain, and I just want to unravel it a bit…

I’m currently looking for a new horse, I compete in Western Dressage, well when there are shows anyway. But I want more than that, I want a horse I can kind of do anything on, trail ride, Working Eq, maybe some Western Classes, or just jump on and enjoy.

So with that kind of in mind…at what point do you want a horse who moves “like a dressage horse” At Intro and Basic, I would argue any horse can do it. Level 1 asks more questions, but still any horse should be able to a workmanlike test. Level 2, yes this is where the first big questions are asked, asking for collection, but how much of that is movement and how much the mind.

Maybe going to look at the paint here, and have had comments that “she doesn’t move like a dressage horse” now I can’t agree or disagree, because I would need to see a whole lot more of her, before making any decisions, it takes me a while.

https://youtu.be/lvT6eh_s028

How can anyone tell anything from that particular video?

[atlatl]

You want a horse with 3 pure gaits. Is the walk a true 4 beat with no toe dragging (not that that is an impurity, but it’s not desired and could be indicative of problems elsewhere)? Is the trot a true 2 beat with the diagonal pairs moving in unison? Is the canter/lope a true 3 beat? Then you go from there.

Depending on your goals and experience, you may want more “extravagant” gaits that are flashier; more range of motion, more articulation of the joints, more suspension and fluency etc.

From that little bit of video, it looked like the canter was lateral and not 3 beat, but it’s hard to tell much from that video.

Good Luck!

[Scribbler]

I can’t tell a thing from that video other than that she is cute and has nice markings.

I also don’t know how a Western dressage horse is meant to move.

The big gait question in Dressage us whether the horse has enough natural reach at the trot to eventually do a credible extended trot. I don’t think Western does this? Or do they?

The trade off is whether the horse can also collect and do a nice canter which is why Dressage isn’t entirely populated by OTSB and saddlebreds and harness breeds that have gorgeous trot.

I’m going to say that paradoxically a long flowing trot might be more influential on scores at the lower levels than a bit higher when there are actually collected moves to train. I bet alot of OTSB could clean up at walk/trot level!

But that’s all “English” dressage. What are the criteria for Western dressage?

[atlatl]

I believe, only from scribing Western dressage classes, that they jog and lengthen the jog. In general, western horses job, english horses trot IME.

[KBC]

@Scribbler you have to be able to demonstrate lengthening of the ‘jog’ at first level, my first prospect was great at shorten, not lengthen…when shorten = break at every vertebrae and stick nose in chest.

Chuck, my current mount, LOVES to lengthen, he has a power house gorgeous trot, but trying to shorten him is a nightmare, and to collect you (I’m told) need abs of steel, as mine are more akin to several large bags of Cotton candy, both in shape and strength, I can create and sit a few steps.

As to what we are looking for, sometimes I wonder, the whole thing about Western Dressage was that a more traditional western moving horse would score well, as long as he showed good rhythm, straightness, or bend! And was in harmony with his rider. It seems though that most of the judges we see are English judges, carded for western shows, and are asking for more of an English movement. I am just talk8mg about my very small patch of rural Canada, it might be different where the ‘big shows’ are

[Training_Cupid]

@KBC

As to what we are looking for, sometimes I wonder, the whole thing about Western Dressage was that a more traditional western moving horse would score well, as long as he showed good rhythm, straightness, or bend! And was in harmony with his rider. It seems though that most of the judges we see are English judges, carded for western shows, and are asking for more of an English movement. I am just talk8mg about my very small patch of rural Canada, it might be different where the ‘big shows’ are

I do traditional dressage, but the impression I get in my area is traditional dressage shows, both schooling and rated, offer Western Dressage classes with the same judge, who is more versed in traditional dressage. Cowboy Dressage does their own events and their judges are more specialized to that discipline.

[Scribbler]

@KBC

@Scribbler you have to be able to demonstrate lengthening of the ‘jog’ at first level, my first prospect was great at shorten, not lengthen…when shorten = break at every vertebrae and stick nose in chest.

Chuck, my current mount, LOVES to lengthen, he has a power house gorgeous trot, but trying to shorten him is a nightmare, and to collect you (I’m told) need abs of steel, as mine are more akin to several large bags of Cotton candy, both in shape and strength, I can create and sit a few steps.

As to what we are looking for, sometimes I wonder, the whole thing about Western Dressage was that a more traditional western moving horse would score well, as long as he showed good rhythm, straightness, or bend! And was in harmony with his rider. It seems though that most of the judges we see are English judges, carded for western shows, and are asking for more of an English movement. I am just talk8mg about my very small patch of rural Canada, it might be different where the ‘big shows’ are

The problems you are describing are training issues not inherent way of moving.

[alibi_18]

@KBC

I’m currently looking for a new horse, I compete in Western Dressage, well when there are shows anyway. But I want more than that, I want a horse I can kind of do anything on, trail ride, Working Eq, maybe some Western Classes, or just jump on and enjoy.

I would tend to say that if you ever want to jump, and have fun, find something that’s already jumping little courses quietly. You then know the horse can and will jump properly.

A horse that can jump quietly and comfortably, usually, can do dressage as well, and go on trail and do whatever. The opposite might not be true.

I had a horse would would not jump for the life of god, it was a X-mutt, and would just plow through whatever jump we would put in front… I stopped trying because it was dangerous… and not worth it at all… despite the owner wishes.

At what point do you want a horse who moves “like a dressage horse”

Straight from the beginning - why trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

No, you don’t need a warmblood, a 6 figures horse… what you need is just correct three gaits. Avoiding downhill, short post-like legs, wide like hell chest, short gaited, miles long back and stubby/thick barreled horse.

Longer legs, more refined and compact do help when it is time to bend in the corners and doing sideways movements.

but how much of that is movement and how much the mind.

Conformation.

A horse with a poor conformation won’t have great movement.
A horse with a poor conformation, that doesn’t have great movement and is being asked a task he’s unsuitable for won’t be a happy athlete.

https://youtu.be/lvT6eh_s028

Hum… I think you could find something more suitable.

[atlatl]

@Training Cupid

I do traditional dressage, but the impression I get in my area is traditional dressage shows, both schooling and rated, offer Western Dressage classes with the same judge, who is more versed in traditional dressage. Cowboy Dressage does their own events and their judges are more specialized to that discipline.

The judges I’ve scribed for were all S dressage judges who were “certified” by WDAA to judge western dressage. I think Cowboy Dressage is another “discipline.”

[lenapesadie]

I would agree that first and foremost you would want three clean gaits. For the goals you describe, an A++ temperament is far more important that fancier gaits.

That video doesn’t show much to base an opinion on. That being said, I was underwhelmed by the canter. If the quality in the video is the horse’s default canter, I would probably pass. The canter I saw seemed NQR. Could be the poor /short video though.

[SuzieQNutter]

The only time I have heard of horses not having the right movement for dressage is the discussions about traditionally carriage horses like friesians.

That hasn’t stopped them competing in upper level dressage.

[mjhco]

3 pure gaits. Period. Western Dressage horses ARE expected to track up. Good gaits are good gaits. Even the Gaited portion of Western Dressage has gaiting standards.

[Casey09]

@KBC

@Scribbler you have to be able to demonstrate lengthening of the ‘jog’ at first level, my first prospect was great at shorten, not lengthen…when shorten = break at every vertebrae and stick nose in chest.

Chuck, my current mount, LOVES to lengthen, he has a power house gorgeous trot, but trying to shorten him is a nightmare, and to collect you (I’m told) need abs of steel, as mine are more akin to several large bags of Cotton candy, both in shape and strength, I can create and sit a few steps.D

That is interesting. My last horse had a good lengthening (although I think it was a little bit fake), but was really hard to collect. The real issue was that he could be so spooky that I decided to move on. My current mount has a lot less lengthening, but is easier to collect and hopefully I’ll learn to pull off a little lengthening. It’s so hard because they all have strengths and weaknesses. I’ve had to learn that I can’t live with “spooky” - I find the entire ride stressful on a spooky horse. You might be at a different point in riding.

[KBC]

@Casey09

I’ve had to learn that I can’t live with “spooky” - I find the entire ride stressful on a spooky horse. You might be at a different point in riding.

NOPE! I have arrived back at the point where I don’t want spooky, or flashy, (sigh apart from maybe the color) I want safe, fun, the no worries kind. My guy isn’t spooky, but he is onward bound, and he gets antsy if I try and slow him down.

[outerbanks77]

For what you’re looking for, I think evaluating whether the horse would take to dressage training is a better question than whether it has “moves like a dressage horse” which many would interpret to mean having a lot of suspension.

For a more average horse, look at it and decide if it moves like a connected unit, front to back. Will it be able to step under and sit a little, or is it so downhill that any sort of proper sitting and collection will be a herculean effort? Is the horse naturally supple enough to be able to step sideways and cross its legs and bend on a 10m circle?

There are fairly Plain Jane horses out there that can do these things, even though plenty of people might sniff and say it doesn’t Move Like a Dressage Horse. But they have the basic build and gaits that make it fair to ask the horse to learn and do the work. There are always exceptions, but a thickly built, downhill stock horses is generally not going to be what you’re looking for. With that little video snip, I see a horse that’s very heavy on the forehand and not very agile or naturally supple.

[NJRider]

You would need a video of the horse relaxed, showing all three gaits both directions. It is not really fair to the horse to ask for an opinion based on a short 10 second clip of the horse screwing around/excited.

[GraceLikeRain]

Rant Ahead: It is 2020. There is no excuse for a seller sending such a useless video. This is the same type of seller who has 50 excuses for not having a video available and waits until you show up to volunteer there is no arena and no one has actually ridden the horse in a month. Clearly they have access to a phone or video camera so why do they not have a real sales video?

You’re criteria are “I want safe, fun, the no worries kind.” If a seller cannot take the time or effort to produce a basic video demonstrating foundation gaits under saddle, I’ll bet you your gas money this is not a horse worth seeing. To assess safe, fun, and a level-head, the horse needs to be actively in work and located at a facility where you can ride the horse. Any horse sold as a sporthorse prospect should have a video Walk/Trot/Canter both directions on hand before being listed. That video should have been taken in the last month or at the longest, the last 3 months.

Based on this single video, she canters like a sewing machine with zero reach, engagement, or anything that says “dressage prospect”. She could also be a very smart horse moving in a conservative manner because of footing and the approaching fence line. If she were a plain bay, would that video still catch your eye?

[Scribbler]

@NJRider

You would need a video of the horse relaxed, showing all three gaits both directions. It is not really fair to the horse to ask for an opinion based on a short 10 second clip of the horse screwing around/excited.

My thoughts too. Horse is getting pushed by the other horse, turns a corner and pops to a stop at the fence. Horses can do some pretty funky moves to keep balanced and upright in tight spaces. There is nothing useful about movement in this video, except that horse is not bucking and does not wipe out and fall on her face or smash into the fence. These are all good things.

I would think a giant purpose bred WB would look even more uncoordinated in rowdy turnout!

[polkadotedpony]

Agreed that the video is useless to make a call on this horse, but the tiny amount of canter you do see is not flattering (lateral and tight behind, but could 100% be a circumstance issue). I would highly recommend that you try to watch a bunch of videos online to help educate your eye on what pure gaits are since I think most of us have the time right now.

Try googling “lateral walk” and “4 beat canter” and watching those you tube videos so you can at least spot those major deal breakers. In general you want to look for a horse that tracks up (back foot falls in print left from front foot) at a minimum or ideally has some degree of overtrack (back foot lands in front of front foot hoofprint) when the horse is actively working. I’d also suggest watching some videos on detecting lameness as well. I found this type of education/research extremely helpful when I embarked on my search and it’ll also help you have a better eye on soundness and training progress when you do own the right horse later. Another thing to look for is good separation of the hind legs in the canter–no bunny hopping behind.