so what do you call the school where they do both?
Ferman? Grench?
or just training dressage horses? :lol:
Thank you. I can’t take credit for that, though; my horses taught it to me. 
It seems to me that different “schools” are more appropriate for some types than others, and the best thing about being an american rider is the openess to various methods and “diversity”.
Quite right. An unyielding, by-the-book, “German school” rider on an OTT TB is a disaster waiting to happen. And, bad person that I am, I’ve gotten many a chuckle over the years, watching various European trainers who think they’re going to come over here and show everyone how to ride, try to deal with the average TB. Kind of nice to see a lowly TB teach humility to a German GP rider. :lol: Even funnier now, that there’s so much TB blood in the “warmbloods” here. It’s an ever more common occurrence.
Mutts
Thank you you SLC, I’m just here tryin’ to learn. According to EggOnBoast or was that EggOnFace[?],“My Gahhhhhd {I’m} ignorant.” but I find the whole different school thing quite fascinating as the various methods can apply to the plethora of breeds and temperaments available to the average american rider. And yes, it is pretty funny to watch a BNT german grand Prix rider trying to teach an Arab or thoroughbred “A thing or two”!:lol:
Well, I’d call it the Spanish Riding School, since presumably, that’s where it all (modern dressage, that is) began.
But then, there’s that whole “Spanish” thing that gets thrown in the mix too, isn’t there?
Best not to name a system. Why not just call it “good riding”?
because it’s a very old tradition in the dressage bb community to talk about it, that’s why :). also because old books have a lot of nationalistic nonsense in them from the time when americans judged the olympics and gave their american riders 80 more points and swedish riders 100 less points so they could win a ribbon, and some people’s horses had such hollow backs and so little muscle behind that it was like a poster child for what NOT to do!
the SRS keeps their nose out of all that nonsense and they just ride. that’s the main reason you will never find any of their riders smack talking about germans do this and french school does that.
in the 20’s when the one time changes were put in the GP test the french said, ‘it looks like some horrible pace gait’ and the germans said, ‘ha ha, you just say that because you can’t do them’, and at various times we have heard, ‘the germans are good at this’ and ‘the french are good at that’.
when you were talking about such a tiny handful of people that it made more sense to say ‘bubi gunther was good at this’ or ‘decarpentry was good at that’ and on his watch this is how all the guys on his team schooled.
they are all just methods in dressage training, they should not be taught as separate methods or ‘one is for fat horses and one is for skinny horses’ or ‘one is for warmbloods and one is for thb’s’.
that’s gonna take you down a very bad road.
the whole suggestion that there is some ham-fisted ‘german school’ where they haul on the reins and kick the snot out of the horse and that is viewed as good riding by germans, and it will make a thb’s head spontaneously combust is silly, anyway, but so is the idea that there’s a french school of sweetness and light where all they do is lateral work and hold the reins like they are baby birds. it’s all silly. go to france, go to germany, all the top people train the same way.
they are just exercises. any trainer worth his salt is constantly refreshing the gait and suppling his horse, playing one against the other like playing a violin high strings and low strings.
you don’t open up a tool box full of tools and say, ‘this is a FRENCH house, so all i’m gonna use to fix it is a hammer!’ do you?
it is all about creating and improving the quality of the connection and developing the balance and impulsion, and creating athletic, gymnasticized horses, which isn’t ‘french’ or ‘german’.
thank you for the analogy on the violin slc…that was a good one.
[QUOTE=slc2;3179288]
in the 20’s when the one time changes were put in the GP test the french said, ‘it looks like some horrible pace gait’ and the germans said, ‘ha ha, you just say that because you can’t do them’, and at various times we have heard, ‘the germans are good at this’ and ‘the french are good at that’.[/QUOTE]
can i get a cite for this please? ANY kind of marginally accurate source from ANYwhere to back up this bit of nonsense would be great. thanks.
That is from early FEI correspondence quoted in The Horseman’s Companion. You go ahead and think of it as nonsense if you like. :lol:
by williams or self?
Conformation flaw?
How can a conformation flaw be erased by conditioning? I don’t think any training regardless of the nationality/ origin will “fix” this issue. It may develop other muscles, but the dip will still be there, NO?
Am I just that stupid to think this? Someone else please explain this further to me, I am just a plain ole rider, nothing special.
A conformation flaw, I suppose, could be remedied by REASONABLE conditioning, I would think. Just like the reality show, “The Biggest Loser” While you can’t be made taller or smarter, one can always become more flexible, educated, fit and muscular. If a downhill-built horse needs to sit more, why can’t one work on the muscles to support this? I think if the muscles are properly developed, the joints won’t experience AS MUCH stress, than if someone asks, say, an agreeable but haunch high quarter horse to hold upper level collection w/o the preliminary conditioning, So, in a long winded way, [sorry] I have faith that with patience, common sense, and muscle building, alot of conformation flaws can be at least diminished.
A conformation flaw cannot be removed, if that’s what’s causing a dip in the neck.
To some degree, layers of muscle and fat MAY develop and fill in that dip, and that MIGHT be helpful in improving the horse’s dressage performance and ability to connect his back to his neck and hence to the bit, but that depends on whether that dip is there because muscle simply hasn’t been correctly developed, or if it’s there because the horse has a ewe-neck, a neck that’s set on very low, or a gigantic wither AND a very poorly shaped neck (post shaped or straight neck, ewe neck, or ‘swan neck’ with an underlying structure to the neck shaped like a ‘s’ with an exaggerated curve -nicole uphoff used to ride one and i used to think no one else in the world could ride a swan necked horse as well as that - i just used to sit there and stare at her riding that horse, ‘how the hell…’). he didn’t really have ‘the whole swan necked thing’ (all the other conformation faults that usually go with it), and i think that is why - that and just her experience and skill and good hands.
Where the neck sets onto the body/shoulder, its underlying shape (the deepest muscles, ligaments, spine), cannot be radically changed. the amount a real glaring fault can be improved is not so big.
Many people ‘fix’ that dip simply by fattening up the horse, as they say, ‘fat hides a multitude of sins’ (in horses, anyway). sometimes the dip simply fills in as the horse matures.
in SOME horses…that dip is just a baby thing and part of being a gawky kid. It is NOT easy to tell the difference between ‘skanky yearling or 2 year old look’ and ‘no, that really is just incorrect’. one has to develop an eye for the deeper structure to see the difference. the neck is a really complicated series of layers of muscle that is not all that easy to learn.
I recall an otherwise handsome horse sold at sport horse auction, i had seen him as yearling/2year old and could see a very, very incorrect neck accompanied by a very straight up and down shoulder (not always a problem, but in his case, it came with so many other problems that it WAS a problem), as an older horse, sold at 3, it was much harder to see, he was fattened up, but under that was still an incorrect neck, you just had to look harder. i then got to see people try to get him on the bit, LOL. it was not at all an easy horse to ride, and it was more ‘looking’ correct than really being correct, and it was always just a little bit struggling to do its work.
Even if muscles and fat are developed in that area by lots of exercise, feed and training, it STILL doesn’t remove the fact that the neck is set on the body/shoulder incorrectly (usually combined with an incorrect shoulder), or that the deepest structure of the neck is just plain old incorrect.
If it’s just a matter of the horse never having been developed or being too skinny, yes, you can develop muscle and his appearance will change alot and they you can see what he is really capable of. if his neck really is just plain old incorrect, no.
I’ve noticed that there are some Absolutes on the net which do not hold water in real life. One is that you cannot ever improve the walk and another is that a dip in front of the withers is fatal and cannot be improved.
But if you repeat them enough in mantra fashion, they will almost become true. If you train with a closed mind, you won’t succeed. Grasshopper.
PS For the horse, the dip IN the saddle may be more problematic than the dip in front of the saddle.
Well I think a pig just sprouted wings and flew out my butt 'cuz I think I may actually agree with what’s- his- face!! The walk CAN definately be improved and, while a super low neck is hard to rectify, it can be accommodated with appropriate conditioning. Does anyone remember one of the last horses Reiner Klimke rode before his passing??Can’t remember but I DO recall the video. He brings the horse into the ring, in Los Angeles, I believe, and it looks like you-know-what but as soon as he took up the reins, the mount transformed and the shoulder lifted. Ewe neck gone!! Of course, Reiner is kind of a god, I’m told, in dressage circles, but I think it shows that with compassionate, intelligent training, one might be surprised with what is possible!!
You’re absolutely right. No “school” of riding is going to eradicate the dip in front of the withers. It’s not muscular, and it’s not fixable; it’s the way the horse is conformed. You can work the horse correctly and build up its topline to where the muscle fills in the dip, to some extent, but it’s never going to completely go away.
Am I just that stupid to think this? Someone else please explain this further to me, I am just a plain ole rider, nothing special.
You sound like a “plain ole rider” with a lot of common sense, to me.
Bingo. :yes:
fwiw, i think the saying is that you can’t improve the innate walk that the horse was born with. which may or may not be the walk it uses while being ridden.
and since this is what many people that are wayyyyyyyyyy more experienced than me have said - i tend to believe it.
it would be interesting to hear about the cases where the innate god given walk was improved.
fwiw, i think the saying is that you can’t improve the innate walk that the horse was born with.
No. People usually just say you can’t improve the walk. There are many reasons why there could be a problem with the walk. Some can be fixed, some can be improved, some cannot be improved. It depends.
Similarly, the issue with the dip in front of the withers depends on the cause. For example, I have a horse here who has large withers and as a youngster the dip was there. He has a gorgeous neck now. He could probably win an international neck contest. :lol: No discernable dip.
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