A question about developing the dip in front of the withers

[nhwr]

over easy

gotta go with eggs here.

It possible to improve the set of the neck in many cases through proper riding. I have seen it happen several times too. If you understand how bones, soft tissue and muscles work together, it becomes obvious that this is do-able. It certainly is possible to change the length and strength of muscles, tendons and ligament with conditioning. Even bone is effected by work. These things are living tissue and respond to the stresses put up on them. Consider a fully development extension that you see in trained ballet dancer or the sometimes extreme postures of devoted practitioner of yoga. These things aren’t natural but just about anybody do them with proper development and enough practice. Granted some will be much better than others, but given the time and training it is possible and it does change the shape of a person’s body. The same is true for a horse.

Horses evolved to spend most of their time with the relatively heavy head and neck down in grazing position. A horse that is out of condition or has been ridden incorrectly may not have the strength or development to carry its neck and head in proper dressage posture. But it certainly can be developed and that will be reflected in its musculature, often leading to the development of a perfect neck :yes:

[egontoast]

Funny how this issue comes up so much more on the net than concerns about skeletal placement. Has anyone looked at a horse skeleton lately? Every horse skeleton has a ewe neck.

I’d be a lot more interested in where the neck comes out of the chest which , I agree, cannot be improved because it is BONE.

[varider30]

[QUOTE=slc2;3179852]
A conformation flaw cannot be removed, if that’s what’s causing a dip in the neck.

in SOME horses…that dip is just a baby thing and part of being a gawky kid. It is NOT easy to tell the difference between ‘skanky yearling or 2 year old look’ and ‘no, that really is just incorrect’. one has to develop an eye for the deeper structure to see the difference. the neck is a really complicated series of layers of muscle that is not all that easy to learn.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree 100%. Well said.

[Auventera_Two]

@slc2;3179852

I recall an otherwise handsome horse sold at sport horse auction, i had seen him as yearling/2year old and could see a very, very incorrect neck accompanied by a very straight up and down shoulder (not always a problem, but in his case, it came with so many other problems that it WAS a problem), as an older horse, sold at 3, it was much harder to see, he was fattened up, but under that was still an incorrect neck, you just had to look harder. i then got to see people try to get him on the bit, LOL. it was not at all an easy horse to ride, and it was more ‘looking’ correct than really being correct, and it was always just a little bit struggling to do its work.

So - a “very incorrect neck accompanied by a very straight up and down shoulder” is only a problem when accompanied by OTHER conformation problems?? What book did you copy this from? I’d like a reference please. Thanks.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=mbm;3178476]
hmmm… not sure if i can atriculate this… but i work with someone who is from the german school but who is french influenced (taught by Theodoerescu )…

and what he teaches is forward/active (not running!) into a sensitive empathetic hand and light giving contact. always always giving (always give again) when the horse goes as requested - we do end up with the horses in self carriage using their backs etc but the contact is just the weight of the reins and the horse is working towards true self carriage. teh contact therefore is light when all is well.

we also use a lot of lateral work to get the horse supple and using its hinds evenly.

not sure if this helps… but the “stringing of the bow” comes both from forward/active and giving the hand so hte horse can stretch into the contact thus raising the back/etc.

this is distrincly different than prior trainers. (moslty USians w/german influence i guess)

(sorry sucky description. i hope someone with experience in both can come and explain more better for you)[/QUOTE]

Well said. I understood you.

It certainly is an easy way to work, except for those days when forward has to be coaxed. :lol: :lol:

[slc2]

no references, you’ll have to either just like it or not like it on its own. :lol:

a “very incorrect neck accompanied by a very straight up and down shoulder” is only a problem when accompanied by OTHER conformation problems??

i wasn’t clear enough, i guess. anyway, here’s what i meant.

conformation faults can’t be evaluated separately like computer components. they have to be weighted, and how much weight they get depends on what else is wrong with the horse.

a straight shoulder. is it a problem? not if the horse’s other conformation points allow him to still use it very freely and be balanced. the usual objection to a straight shoulder is that it results in a poor gait. if the gait is still good, the straight shoulder is being compensated for. it’s not a problem.

a horse with a straight up and down shoulder often will have a short scapula, poorly angulated or very short forearm, and a number of other problems that all together wind up a horse with a very poor range of motion and little ability to balance himself while in motion. there are, however, horses with fairly straight angle on the shoulder, and because the scapula is long and they move very freely and are very well balanced, and all the other parts in front are very good, they will have an excellent range of motion and function very well despite the angle of the shoulder blade not looking too good.

likewise, a horse with a poorly conformed neck may have many other traits that compensate for that. for example, one of uphoff’s horses had a very ‘swanny’ neck, and even so, he was able to do very well in dressage, she had to work very hard to get that neck as good as it could be, but the whole rest of the mechanism of the horse was so good, he was so balanced, it became less important.

my point is one has to take everythign together, you can’t just put a rule on a shoulder and say, ‘this horse is bad’ or ‘this horse is good’.

i feel the same way about most conformation points. unfortunately, most conformation points occur in ‘constellations’, not individually where they can be dealt with successfully. so you could have a horse whose whole body is inverted, who has all his angles and all his conformation adding up to a big problem. there is also the problem of overall type and balance, so that individual conformation points wind up being insignificant, because there is already such a problem with overall type or balance.

[huntrpaint]

another perspective altogether

[QUOTE=LMH;3178533]
nhwr and mbm-actually this is more the kind of answer I was looking for.

I was having this discussion with someone and I didn’t really have the answers so this is why I am asking.

I know for sure, the goal is to have a supple horse with a lifted back and lifted base of the neck.

Part of the reason I am asking is I recently watched a video of a trainer that is NH with a strong “French” influence

The horses were so…SOFT and SUPPLE…they looked like ballerinas…but what caught my eye is how LIGHT the contact was-the loosest was a slight drape of the rein-so the contact was simply the weight of the rein.

At times she did take a very small ‘feel’ but still quite light by most standards I would think.

The focus was heavily on lateral work.

BUT when I have asked others they insist that no contact=no ‘bow’=no ability to really ‘engage’ the topline and base of the neck, for lack of a better way of putting it.

I have also read material from Dr Deb and she really focuses more on suppleness and lateral moves for engaging the base of the neck.

Anyway, providing for the reason behind my question may help see why I am asking.

I am not wondering which WAY is better-rather if this neck development and posture CAN be achieved (CAN a horse be using his back properly) with a contact SO light it appears only as a soft feel with a drape in the rein being the ‘reward or release’ as opposed to-CONTACT with the release being lighter contact.

I am not looking for high level dressage moves in correct fashion for competition, rather just to strengthen and properly develop a horse for his health

I am never going to be a formal dressage rider that progresses to a double bridle-so am not wondering about that level of finesse…simply correct biomechanical movement.

I have a hunter background and do have as of the last several years a high level of comfort and appreciation for my natural horsemanship training-I just was to be very sure I am on a good road to developing my horses physically.

So again, is there a difference in the end result (horse moving over his topline)-I understand there is not-

BUT I do understand there is a difference in HOW each thought or method gets there.

I just was most curious if at some point if a more ‘french concept’ would eventually NEED more connection or if the suppling and lateral moves, encouraging self carriage earlier on would ‘get the job done.’

Hopefully that makes it more clear why I was asking and where my question was coming from![/QUOTE]

Take a look at a video of an extremely great western pleasure horse and you will see exactly what you describe in the way of self-carriage, rounded back and engagement. You may not have the same neck carriage but these horses are also built differently so they tend to carry their heads/necks lower naturally from birth. I would recommend watching a video on a horse like Vital Signs are Good. You will see that it’s all about leg going to bit and the horse will eventually do everything off of leg with very little need (if any) to use bit contact at all.
I realize this is an extreme position on a dressage forum but I believe if you see a video of a truly great pleasure horse (not a man-made disaster) that you will be amazed at what can be obtained with little to no contact on the reins and the amazing amount of true collection a horse like this is capable of.
I believe you should be able to find some videos of her online if you just google her name or go to youtube.

[nhwr]

True collection in dressage requires elevation of the poll.

[egontoast]

True collection in dressage requires elevation of the poll.

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Grab the bull by the horns! If there aren’t any horns, it’s a cow, so stop it

Yes and sometimes cows have horns.

[cinder88]

Well I think a pig just sprouted wings and flew out my butt 'cuz I think I may actually agree with what’s- his- face!!

My! How uncomfortable! Will Anti-Monkey Butt Powder help?

Cinder

[nhwr]

Never said they didn’t.

Yes and sometimes cows have horns.
Sometime they do, sometimes they don’t.

Blame Stephen Colbert, the master of truthiness. He said it. I believe it. That ends it.