A question for all English saddle fitters/reps

[mvp]

How come you guys don’t make a practice of bringing the Naked Trees with you when you bring the trailer of demo saddles to try?

I think “best practice” in saddle fitting in English and Western worlds starts with matching the geometry of the tree to the curves of the horse’s back. Yet I can count on one hand the number of saddle makers in English world that I have ever seen start by fitting a saddle this way. They have only so many trees. Plus those are smaller, lighter and cheaper than a demo saddle built around it. So why isn’t it common to bring trees to a fitting?

In the equivalent parts of Western World, the saddle maker regularly begins with setting the trees he usually uses on the horse’s back. Those guys also have tree makers and can/will tell those guys how to modify the tree around which they’ll build the saddle to fit the particular horse. Lots of times, this works well for a customer if he tends to ride horses that are related to one another; that same (expensive and quite custom) saddle will be likely to fit lots of his stock.

I know the manufacturing of trees and saddles are usually done in factories and by unrelated companies. Those facts of their production make things different from Western World. But surely that doesn’t mean that the fit of the tree to the horse is as irrelevant as we are treating it now, nor should it be kept a cloaked secret.

Can any of you enlighten me? I’m just tired of being asked to spend $5K or so on a saddle that wasn’t insured to fit from the tree up.

[Bluey]

@mvp

How come you guys don’t make a practice of bringing the Naked Trees with you when you bring the trailer of demo saddles to try?

I think “best practice” in saddle fitting in English and Western worlds starts with matching the geometry of the tree to the curves of the horse’s back. Yet I can count on one hand the number of saddle makers in English world that I have ever seen start by fitting a saddle this way. They have only so many trees. Plus those are smaller, lighter and cheaper than a demo saddle built around it. So why isn’t it common to bring trees to a fitting?

In the equivalent parts of Western World, the saddle maker regularly begins with setting the trees he usually uses on the horse’s back. Those guys also have tree makers and can/will tell those guys how to modify the tree around which they’ll build the saddle to fit the particular horse. Lots of times, this works well for a customer if he tends to ride horses that are related to one another; that same (expensive and quite custom) saddle will be likely to fit lots of his stock.

I know the manufacturing of trees and saddles are usually done in factories and by unrelated companies. Those facts of their production make things different from Western World. But surely that doesn’t mean that the fit of the tree to the horse is as irrelevant as we are treating it now, nor should it be kept a cloaked secret.

Can any of you enlighten me? I’m just tired of being asked to spend $5K or so on a saddle that wasn’t insured to fit from the tree up.

There is not much relevant difference in how an English saddle tree is built and fit.
Those are so small and flexible, compared with western trees, that are larger, more set and have little adjustment.

English saddles can change by how they are constructed, the panels really what will fit a horse and not another, even on a similar tree.

Western saddles, depending on their uses, how they may fit a horse is set by the tree shape, no panels to work with to fit different horses.
You can change a saddle fit up to a point with blankets, but they have way less room to fit all kinds of backs.

[sheltona01]

It would not really be that useful and expensive to carry the trees. I always start with the tree shape in my head that matches the horse’s back then work from there. I agree with bluey. The tree is only 50% of the fit for the horse in the English saddle. The other 50% is the panel. Also a lot comes down to how people use the saddles. Most horse’s in western saddles, do not really change their back shape in work. So the dynamic fit is a lot less important. Also how it fits the rider is also just as important and you can not tell that from just the tree.

And yes, I do have bare trees in my collection.

[mvp]

I am discovering that my mare is a hard fit even for saddle trees. Also, the place trees don’t fit her is usually in the rails. That has caused at least 50% of the fitters/reps I have met to look at me strangely, as though the head of the tree and perhaps the “rock” to it were the only parts that influenced fit. And then you have the saddle maker who also flocks, who says he can’t work around a “too-narrow-in-the-rails” problem because that originates in the tree and no amount of moving flocking around in the panels will matter. I can’t win! LOL.

I will say that looking at the shapes of trees for dressage saddles (from the outside), I can see how this is working. I think most people want to ride in a narrow twist, no matter what the shape of the horse underneath her. So tree- and then saddle makers will aim for that, perhaps designing the saddle to sit well above a horse’s back in order to resolve the wide base of the “triangle” (the surface of the horse’s sausage-round back) with a the slim apex that the rider wants to sit on. And I think they tend to use a cut-back head and perhaps a bit of a steep angle from the pommel to create an artificially- narrow twist.

None of these options do it for me. I’m prepared to spend some money to buy the right saddle that actually fits this horse and lets me sit up closer to the withers were I should. But I’m done paying custom (or semi-custom) prices without seeing a fit for the horse that’s clear to me and genuine.

I don’t mean to insult careful saddle fitters, but I have been sold saddles that don’t do a good enough job for too long. And I believe if you took the trees out of the two saddles I have that I ride this horse in, you’d see a radical difference and you’d see why they fit the horse and rider (or don’t) in exactly the way that the saddles built around them do. I’m not sure panel shape can make up for the very basic/macroscopic bits of tree geometry that I think influencing the fit I’m talking about.

[Malda]

@mvp

I am discovering that my mare is a hard fit even for saddle trees. Also, the place trees don’t fit her is usually in the rails. That has caused at least 50% of the fitters/reps I have met to look at me strangely, as though the head of the tree and perhaps the “rock” to it were the only parts that influenced fit. And then you have the saddle maker who also flocks, who says he can’t work around a “too-narrow-in-the-rails” problem because that originates in the tree and no amount of moving flocking around in the panels will matter. I can’t win! LOL.

I will say that looking at the shapes of trees for dressage saddles (from the outside), I can see how this is working. I think most people want to ride in a narrow twist, no matter what the shape of the horse underneath her. So tree- and then saddle makers will aim for that, perhaps designing the saddle to sit well above a horse’s back in order to resolve the wide base of the “triangle” (the surface of the horse’s sausage-round back) with a the slim apex that the rider wants to sit on. And I think they tend to use a cut-back head and perhaps a bit of a steep angle from the pommel to create an artificially- narrow twist.

None of these options do it for me. I’m prepared to spend some money to buy the right saddle that actually fits this horse and lets me sit up closer to the withers were I should. But I’m done paying custom (or semi-custom) prices without seeing a fit for the horse that’s clear to me and genuine.

I don’t mean to insult careful saddle fitters, but I have been sold saddles that don’t do a good enough job for too long. And I believe if you took the trees out of the two saddles I have that I ride this horse in, you’d see a radical difference and you’d see why they fit the horse and rider (or don’t) in exactly the way that the saddles built around them do. I’m not sure panel shape can make up for the very basic/macroscopic bits of tree geometry that I think influencing the fit I’m talking about.

I’m going through the same thing. I’ve had my mare for three years, lots of saddle problems. Thought I found one that fit (dressage), but she started being “off” on the left side, but only when I rode her. Two other good riders tried her in the same saddle and she was fine. Had the vet come out and she’s sound. I’m assuming that the problem was caused because I’m heavier than the other two riders and I have scoliosis and sit with my left hip lower than the right. Probably just made her sore after awhile.

The good news: found a saddle that fits great. It’s a cheap, synthetic Big Horn gaited western, so the panels flair a bit in the front. Even sweat marks, she moves great and has even smoothed out a bit. Bad news: I hate it. Even with a seat saver it’s rock hard, no twist, puts me in a chair seat and I have a sore lower back after I ride.

Like you I’m saving up for the right saddle. I trail ride and need something we’re both comfortable with for up to three hours. Kieffer now sells a general purpose and a dressage saddle with flat panels like a western saddle. I’m going to try those out.

The only thing that can be done is to try, try, try lots of saddles.

[Jackie_Cochran]

You might want to look into the Pegasus Butterfly saddles. They have dressage, jumping and trail saddles.

Mine is a jumping saddle. Because there is no “pommel plate” I can get my seat FORWARD in the saddle, much further forward than in regular treed jumping saddles. By using a BOT/ThinLine Contender II 6 pocket pad I can put in shims to help fit the saddle to the horse.

I got this particular saddle to work on horses with pretty flat backs, and I satisfactorily fitted a horse with the absolute worse sway back I had ever ridden upon (took two bridging shims each side.)

The wonderful thing about this saddle is that I do not have to worry about fitting wide shoulders, narrow shoulders, tall withers to no withers, I change the shims as needed and I can use the same saddle on all of them.

If you can’t find anything else that works, including custom saddles, this saddle might well be worth a try.

[no.stirrups]

1.) Western trees are far easier to pack than western saddles! English saddles nest together nicely and are light-weight, so it’s easy to pack the whole thing. Frankly, I think the way English fitters do it is better. I think that western fitters were not able to pack a bunch of completed saddles so they put a positive spin on it and called it a feature rather than a bug. :lol:

2.) Western saddles don’t have a panel to modify the fit. How the tree fits IS how the saddle will fit. English trees are very significantly modified by the panel shape. Buyers of English saddles, IME, want to see how the total package will work for their horse. And they want to ride in it. Can’t do that with a bare tree!

3.) Western saddle tree patterns are easily modified to fit different horse shapes. English saddle trees are not. Western saddles are (traditionally) solid wood. They can be shaped and changed like any other carpentry project. English trees are made on molds. Each mold costs tens of thousands of dollars to make. Very limited modifications are possible without making a new mold. My first priority when fitting a saddle is to make sure the tree is right but it’s a multiple choice question with English saddles, not a design question as it is for western saddles. Between the 4 brands I stock I have access to over 2 dozen different trees shapes. When one of my saddle makers comes out with a new tree I invest a lot of time into developing an understanding of the shape and how it interacts with different horse shapes. Part of that process is inspecting a bare tree. Part of the reason that people hire me is that I can look at a horse and immediately narrow down the choices to a select few. They can then ride in saddles made on those trees and feel the difference in their horse’s performance.

4.) Horses change shape when they move. The tree that fits best when the horse is in the barn aisle will not necessarily be the saddle that fits best in the arena or out on the trail. You can’t adequately check the shape of a bare tree in a variety of circumstances the way you can a complete saddle.

Occasionally a prospective client asks the same question you have. I have a pretty big collection of bare trees that I’m happy to bring to fitting appointments. Usually once the client has witnessed the process I go through to determine the best fit they are no longer concerned with seeing the bare tree as they are more than satisfied with the conclusion we’ve come to without using them.

[Arelle]

Depending on what you’re looking for, perhaps give Mike Corcoran a call.

He lives near me, we used my horses in a photo shoot for the Paint Horse Journal regarding saddle fit and he had multiple trees he brought out and explained how they fit and didn’t fit. He is primarily known for his custom western dressage saddles, but I’ve been to his shop and has some wonderful English and Western saddles he has done as well. He isn’t a big name like CWD, but I’ve never found a negative review.

[LovieBird]

@Arelle

Depending on what you’re looking for, perhaps give Mike Corcoran a call.

He lives near me, we used my horses in a photo shoot for the Paint Horse Journal regarding saddle fit and he had multiple trees he brought out and explained how they fit and didn’t fit. He is primarily known for his custom western dressage saddles, but I’ve been to his shop and has some wonderful English and Western saddles he has done as well. He isn’t a big name like CWD, but I’ve never found a negative review.

I use Mike and he’s WONDERFUL. He’s not just a fitter or a rep, he can actually make a saddle and fully understands the ins and outs of how saddles function.

I have one of his dressage saddles and my horse has never gone better. Wither gussets, serge panels and a nice, generous channel are the features that really made a difference for my horse.