A quick overview for a mare owner considering breeding

[Cruisesmom]

Good Morning.

I have a wonderful 12 year old AQHA mare that is showing some signs that her potential as a riding horse will be limited due to a past injury. She is very well put together. Has had two foals is the past (previous owner).

I have been searching for a suitable draft cross for myself for sometime now. I have been pondering the idea of breeding this mare to a local shire stallion that crosses beautiful sporthorses.

I board at a wonderful facility that welcomes the idea.
I have 20+ years experience with horses, but have never had any personal experience with breeding a foal.

What can I expect as a newbie? Good, bad and ugly? Am I way out of line to even consider this? Apprx cost of prenatal care? What should be budgeted for breeding a mare and raising a foal?

The intention is to keep this foal as my next riding horse. All feedback is appreciated

[Scaramouch]

The Shire stallion produces beautiful sporthorses out of what type of mare? QH mares similar to yours? That is not a cross that would typically produce anything more athletic than a lower level horse. That’s fine if that’s what you want, but you could likely buy a young draft cross for much less than you would spend breeding your mare and raising the foal to starting age - and without the risk to your mare.

[epowers]

If a QH/Draft cross is what you want, I pretty much guarantee you could find something like a nursemare foal that fit your bill for drastically less than it would cost to breed your mare, and you’d already know what you’d be getting to some degree (versus breeding your mare to a shire and ending up with QH legs and a draft body and head). Not to mention the risk to the mare, as the commenter above pointed out.

[Jim_R]

With a cross like that you might get what you want 1 out of 5 times, maybe. Makes no sense to do it IMHO. Plenty of crosses out there dirt cheap and you can see what you are getting.If I was looking for a job for her I would see how her other two foals turned out and breed back to what she was bred to if they were good horses.
So many people want to do crosses to get the best of each breed, they never consider they will get the worst of both.

[beowulf]

Don’t do it - not just because the slim likelihood of having an athletic foal… but also because there are already so many draft-x out there… you won’t get anything better than the hundreds of PMUs already flooding the market…

If I were you I’d be looking around at PMUs if you want a foal… we did it and it was a lovely experience. We picked 2 out from about a herd of 200 foals that came galloping down a chute… what an experience… both wonderful eggs and I will do it again in a heartbeat when the time is right.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

You would want to do a biopsy, culture and cytology before looking at stallions to see if she is even able to be bred. My friend bought a stud fee before doing that step and now has a stud fee she can’t use or get a refund. So maybe $400?

Semen cost, shipping cost, storage cost if frozen.

I spent about $700 per cycle breeding adding in everything. Two cycles on a much younger mare. Plus a culture and cytology in between when we didn’t get a pregnancy first try. Now another $100 on post-breeding ultrasounds. Plus the gas and time with hauling back and forth repeatedly–probably another $200. So call it $2,100 plus semen cost + shipping + semen storage. Assuming she gets in foal and doesn’t lose the foal. You could just be out thousands.
Then you have the cost to board and care for the baby until it is 3 or 4 and can be started.

So now that you have an idea on the costs, I must unfortunately agree with everyone else. With a cross like that you are MUCH better off buying a foal on the ground.

Also, your mare or mare and foal could die in foaling. Another thing to be aware of.

[babecakes]

The gamble with this kind of cross would not be worth the money spent to me. I agree with the poster who said that the odds are slim that you would get ‘all’ the right parts. Far better to go shop and see what you’re getting.

What type of quarter horse is she? Better to breed type to type. If she has any real breeding value I would place her in a good home.

[Cruisesmom]

I must say that I have been daydreaming about a cute foal…

I was curious to see what it actually costs to breed. I know the risks as far as losing mare/foal or both. I have been toying with the idea…thank you for steering my away from a potentially bad decision.

I have looked on a few websites for PMU/nursemare foals. Where does one go about getting more info on available foals out there? It seems every draft cross in my area is fetching 10k plus.

[Cruisesmom]

[QUOTE=babecakes;8227746]
The gamble with this kind of cross would not be worth the money spent to me. I agree with the poster who said that the odds are slim that you would get ‘all’ the right parts. Far better to go shop and see what you’re getting.

What type of quarter horse is she? Better to breed type to type. If she has any real breeding value I would place her in a good home.[/QUOTE]
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/skips+passionate+gal

[Nootka]

Don’t know if you have looked here. Where is your area?

http://warmblood-sales.com/Draft-Cross.asp

[Cruisesmom]

[QUOTE=Nootka;8227841]
Don’t know if you have looked here. Where is your area?

http://warmblood-sales.com/Draft-Cross.asp[/QUOTE]

Western New York

[Didi]

Count on 10K for breeding, including all of the vet visits, exams, shots, etc. As someone (professional breeder) told me, if you would take 10K and throw it out of a moving car window, go ahead and breed. I was fool enough to do it and now have an amazing foal who I think hung the moon. I wanted the experience, though, and was willing to risk it. Good luck with your choice!

[ElementFarm]

I think there’s a lot to be said for breeding your “heart horse” so you can have a bit of her in your next riding horse. That being said, the responsible thing is to only breed a “heart mare” that is worth replicating, and then find a stallion that will give you the best chance at a healthy, marketable, fun-to-ride foal.

I have to agree with other posters… a full draft x QH is probably not going to end up being the horse you want, or marketable if you don’t. If you want the fun of raising a baby, either buy a draft cross from a reputable breeder where you know where on the “draft…sporthorse spectrum” the foal will end up. Or breed your beloved mare to a more suitable stallion (QH, TB, or maybe WB)

as for costs. I have two maiden mares I bred this year. Two cycles for one, three cycles for the other (first cycle for both was a no-go on both because FedEx delayed overnight shipment and missed both mares’ windows. But still all the collection, vet, board costs were incurred). Stud fees are generally 1-2.5K each, then I’d say another 1-2K in costs for each mare for board at the repro vet’s, drugs, followup exams, etc. So far I’ve got two healthy heartbeats and one confirmed colt But I’ll admit it is a bit pricier than I expected going in. My heart mare is fabulously bred, was a very successful show horse, and if I could reproduce her exactly, I would. That’s the kind of horse that I think is worth investing in breeding. And I picked a well bred, proven sporthorse sire to complement her. So assuming the foal is born healthy, it has a shot at a great life and marketability, if for some reason I can’t keep him.

I think we owe it to all future foals to think about their futures. No one ever intentionally breeds fuglies that end up at auction to kill buyers. But breeding responsibly can potentially help ensure your foal never ends up in that bad situation.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[ladyj79]

Ok, just go to ravine ranch and/or twin valley ranch websites today. Have something as you describe in a week. For cheap.

[candyappy]

I have raised 8 foals for myself as future riding horses. I was never disappointed. My 2 mares had good conformation and good minds and were a pleasure to ride. If your mare isn’t all those things then I wouldn’t breed her.

I always started working with my foals right away and every day. I had plenty of experience handling foals before breeding my own and that is important too.

I have never had much money. I have used AI and live cover. Once I had her confirmed bred I just kept things normal. Had her rechecked at 4 months , did my own vaccinations ,care and feeding. I didn’t use my vet again until the foal arrived. He came to check them both over. I never had a problem. We do raise other types of livestock so care & birthing is a normal happening for me.

If you still want to breed her than do. Find a stud that compliments her and is strong where she is weak. Buying one already here is not a guarantee either.

[sweetiemcdee]

Rough estimate it cost me about 5.5k maybe more to get my baby on the ground. This is only counting what I spent over and above the mare’s normal expenses since I would have had the mare either way. If everything had gone perfectly, which it did not, I could have pulled it off for closer to 3k.

It really depends on the stud fee, method of breeding (live cover vs fresh or frozen semen), and how smoothly things go while the mare is pregnant and when she foals.

We did fresh cooled and it took my mare 2 cycles to get prego. I sent her to the SO since they were only 2hrs away to avoid the hassle of multiple trips to the vet and shipping semen… This breeder does all her own repo work and charged a flat fee per cycle for mare management, so I’m sure in my case that ultimately saved me some money. If you add the mare’s normal expenses the numbers get even higher. The mare gave us a scare a few weeks before hitting the magical number of 320 days gestation, so she lived at the vets the last six weeks before she foaled. NOT CHEAP and everyone turned out fine.

I got exactly what I wanted and would do it all over again in a heartbeat, but I was pretty much a basketcase the whole time. I agree with the others, for the money you could probably find something on the ground that is exactly what you want. For me, since I only boarded the mare at the breeders and while she was at the vet, my foal ended up costing me exactly what the SO lists her babies for so I guess you could say I broke even lol.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;8227585]
The Shire stallion produces beautiful sporthorses out of what type of mare? QH mares similar to yours? That is not a cross that would typically produce anything more athletic than a lower level horse. That’s fine if that’s what you want, but you could likely buy a young draft cross for much less than you would spend breeding your mare and raising the foal to starting age - and without the risk to your mare.[/QUOTE]

Very much agree - all heavy x light horse breeding is risky, even if 2 individuals have previously produced something nice in a similar cross. Your best bet is crossing the same individuals who have already produced multiple suitable horses. Just because X Shire stallion and Y QH mare have each produced nice foals separately, does not mean this particular pair will.

Now, if X Shire has consistently produced the same type of foal across multiple mares built like Y mare, the risk is lower, but I bet this particular stallion hasn’t bred enough QH mares like the OP.

I also would not buy a draft cross youngster unless (maybe) he was the product of 2 parents who have together consistently produced fairly similarly-typed offspring. Young draft crosses can turn REALLY drafty in the 3+ year range

So Cruise, if you really want to do all the homework on this stallion, find out the dams of these offspring you like. That matters a lot. How old are his kids? I would want a large enough total number to be fully mature for the above reason.

As for cost - you can stay pretty low (beyond whatever the stud fee is) if everything goes right - she has a clean culture and cytology, isn’t a bear to get to cycle, catches on the first try, has no problems through pregnancy, and foals safely. It happens! I was so lucky, other than a mild colic towards the end.

Even when things go right, and you have the horse at home, by the time it’s riding age, you’re still going to have into him at least what it would have likely cost to buy that same youngster at that age, depending on your home setup. The upside is it’s all spread out over several years.

You could also start saving all that money and buy a really 3yo

When things go wrong, it adds up quickly, if you even end up with a rideable horse, or a horse at all.

[Amberkez]

As you can see you are going to get a lot of responses that are along the lines of don’t add a mutt to the world. And in context I completely agree, you will be limiting future worth and safety of said foal. As a breeder you need to keep an honest outlook and on horses future.

That being said, if this is a heart horse, and you know you will be able to keep and provide for the foal, or if you do sell it wait until its under saddle, better chance at a good home…then go for it.

First congrats on a well bred mare, I love the Skipper horses, they can be a bit tough in the mind but super dependable. Can you post a photo?

And now I’m going to make another suggestion, if you are set on looking for a heavier stallion why not look at an Irish Draught? There will be more athleticism than a draft stallion. And I’ve seen in person a couple of nice AQHA/RID crosses, good minds, good bone, super friendly.

As to cost, hope for the best, plan for the worst.
Get a basic cost and x3, you never plan on one cycle.
How old is you mare? Is she a maiden?
First step, an excellent repro vet.

My costs are for one cycle are usually around $950
$625 mare management (breeding/board/short cycling if needed)
$325 collection/shipping

$1500 stud fee
$3000 three cycles
= $4500

For perspective this year so far I have bred 4 mares
#1 17yr Maiden (heart horse)
3 cycles, encountered issues, not in foal. Lots of additional treatments.
Second year we’ve tried to breed this mare.
#2 15yr Maiden
1 cycle, stallion owner turned out to be an AHole, not infoal
#3 13yr Mare, foal at side
1 cycle, in foal
#4 12yr Maiden
3 cycles, in foal.
1st/2nd cycle limited quality semen. 3rd cycle switched stallion

[D_BaldStockings]

If , for some reason, you decide to go ahead and do this cross: DO NOT do live cover.

Draft stallion x Light mare can result in an severely injured mare. I know of one that ended up being put down.

I would personally breed to a sire that is himself as close to what you want in the foal - and reproduces that - as possible.
Realizing that a complete outcross does not always work as planned.

Riding a Shire would not be my goal.

In general breeding is much more expensive than buying a young, preferably started, horse.

one sample http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-944113

[Cruisesmom]

[QUOTE=Amberkez;8230805]
As you can see you are going to get a lot of responses that are along the lines of don’t add a mutt to the world. And in context I completely agree, you will be limiting future worth and safety of said foal. As a breeder you need to keep an honest outlook and on horses future.

That being said, if this is a heart horse, and you know you will be able to keep and provide for the foal, or if you do sell it wait until its under saddle, better chance at a good home…then go for it.

First congrats on a well bred mare, I love the Skipper horses, they can be a bit tough in the mind but super dependable. Can you post a photo?

And now I’m going to make another suggestion, if you are set on looking for a heavier stallion why not look at an Irish Draught? There will be more athleticism than a draft stallion. And I’ve seen in person a couple of nice AQHA/RID crosses, good minds, good bone, super friendly.

As to cost, hope for the best, plan for the worst.
Get a basic cost and x3, you never plan on one cycle.
How old is you mare? Is she a maiden?
First step, an excellent repro vet.

My costs are for one cycle are usually around $950
$625 mare management (breeding/board/short cycling if needed)
$325 collection/shipping

$1500 stud fee
$3000 three cycles
= $4500

For perspective this year so far I have bred 4 mares
#1 17yr Maiden (heart horse)
3 cycles, encountered issues, not in foal. Lots of additional treatments.
Second year we’ve tried to breed this mare.
#2 15yr Maiden
1 cycle, stallion owner turned out to be an AHole, not infoal
#3 13yr Mare, foal at side
1 cycle, in foal
#4 12yr Maiden
3 cycles, in foal.
1st/2nd cycle limited quality semen. 3rd cycle switched stallion[/QUOTE]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204757809599245&set=a.1524310381858.2075373.1057586804&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203914121187562&set=a.3362176807370.2140629.1057586804&type=3&theater

She is a great mare. She has been bred twice, a qh colt, and a Dutch Warmblood filly that is huge. I think the best thing to do is place her in a great home with the expectation of a trail horse/broodmare situation. I will find that sporty draft cross out there some day.

I love the idea of breeding her and the whole process that is involved, but quite frankly it scares the snot out of me if for some reason this potential foal is not what I wanted or is 15 hands of draft head and feet, or a dummy foal, or god knows what else can happen. I am ultimately responsible for bringing that life into the world.
Thank you everyone for the great suggestions, advice and knowledge.