AA Eventers Do you feel disenfranchised by the USEA?

[Divine_Comedy]

I don’t know that I feel disenfranchised per se, but I certainly feel frustrated about some of the ways the sport doesn’t think about the way they make things difficult for amateurs specifically.

Primarily the way they schedule things at the upper levels make it extremely difficult for amateurs to participate at FEI and I/A, even on the east coast. Intermediate one-days are always run first thing on Saturday seems like which makes it pretty damn difficult for a working amateur to get their XC course walked once let alone twice. If they are a couple hours away…forget about it.

I’ve put in requests for a local FEI to ride Friday, knowing my level would have Thurs/Fri times, told they would consider it and it probably wouldn’t be a problem, and then without being contacted again end up on Thursday when ride times come out on Tuesday because I’m ‘not a junior’…despite the Friday division not being a junior division with at least one older rider. Not helpful when I planned that way and there’s meetings I have set up on Thursday that I have to reschedule. Prelim Amateur at the AECs is Tues/Wed/Thurs…

And the way the sport in the US handles the payment structure for events is really painful…charging credit cards the second you enter even if it is on opening day, charging fees, then if you scratch prior to closing you don’t get a check from the event until after they run. Potentially that puts you floating the cost of an entry for up to 2 months, while puts you out credit card fees. It would be nice to see entries need to be accompanied by either CC information or checks but without charging the cards until closing date. Then refunds for scratching wouldn’t even be necessary.

It’s just a few reasons that you see more amateurs at P/I/A in England than over here in my opinion that have less to do with money and more to do with just the way things are set up over here. I get that those levels are primarily pros and juniors with a lot more flexibility in their schedule but it would be nice if some simple changes could be looked at to make it easier for amateurs to participate at the higher levels.

Having said that…I’ve tried a couple times to get involved with USEA committees that I feel strongly about and been rebuffed. I could probably try harder or get involved locally though and haven’t. I’ve spread myself pretty thin though the last few years and I just don’t feel like I have the bandwidth to take on much else. And that’s on me, not on anyone else.

[Highflyer]

Yeah-- all joking aside, I am an officer for one of our local GMO/CTAs (DVCTA) and have been on the board for MCTA. If you are an AA who competes locally, especially at the unrecognized levels or lower recognized levels, these groups can be a great way to get involved, meet new people, and influence the sport at venues where you actually compete. (Plus earn sweet year end awards.)

@Duckz

I’m not entirely sure I understand the question, or how feeling disenfranchised is related to moving up the levels? Could you clarify what kind of info you’re looking for here? Or who you want responding?

Not even sure I’m the target audience - are you looking for people with upper level/team goals? I’m an AA and I clocked around Training level for a few years on my now-retired good egg. My current hand-me-down OTTB looks like he’s going to step in nicely to the job of carting me around Training for a few more years. I am on the board of a local USEA event ( @Highflyer that’s definitely what happens when you volunteer one too many times, haha). I don’t necessarily feel disenfranchised, but I look at my competitive goals as more of an individual journey and not one that is tied to support from the USEA.

[findeight]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Probably not. But I’m a little more familiar with Hunters as started out taking Hunt Seat lessons.

Hunters seem a little more accepting about the high costs of equine sports.

I hardly see anybody in the hunter/jumper forum complain about the 1% being able to go and drop 6 figures for an A circuit hunter and how it’s not fair.

Some of the dressage people could learn a few things from the hunter peeps.

It’s been an interesting discussion and has been giving me a lot of food for thought.

Im not stalking you or teaming up with skydy, just not really bored enough to shampoo the carpets. Yet. Soon though. But thats just wrong. Hunter peeps have constantly complained/whined/lamented about the rarefied atmosphere at the top levels and feeling USEF and USHJA underserve the other 95% in the 19 years Ive been on here.

Perhaps they dont use that terminology in the thread titles but most topics from Pony Finals to Derbies to why does everybody ride Hunters so bad to why do top 3’6” Hunters cost so much or even why are good 2’6” Hunters over 20k. And the ever popular they can afford the push button horse so they don’t know how to ride. Its just not fair. Big Eq is not Hunters but those threads go that way as well every fall as Finals come up, not fair to lease a specialist for big bucks. Same old same old.

To a certain extent, its human nature and is true in any sport, Better coaching, equipment, able to go to more competitions, whatever…

[Texel]

Having commented some in the dressage thread, I figured I’d give my two cents here since eventing is what I competed in when I was still a teen.

There are a couple of different disciplines I enjoy enough that I could see myself being happy to put in the legwork to get to the upper levels (if all the other stars came into alignment, and I’m not talking money, I’m talking not spending four hours a day on a bus to get to and from work). Eventing is one of them. I perceive myself, with a decent horse and a competent trainer, having a better chance of getting to the upper levels of eventing than I would dressage.

I personally don’t feel as disenfranchised with eventing as I do with dressage. Frankly, I realized very shortly after I switched to straight dressage that I would never be competitive. My goals in dressage simply do not align with what I believe the sport of dressage rewards. I believe that eventing as a whole hasn’t quite been professionalized to death yet, and it gives it a great, egalitarian spirit that I have enjoyed.

That said. I do have some gripes, which I’m pretty sure everyone here has expressed at least once.

Level creep.

The increasing gamification of x-country.

How TPTB seem to hand wave away bloodshed and death.

How the sport keeps watering itself down to stay in the Olympics.

The lack of investment in infrastructure and competition west of the Mississippi. I keep hearing things about “oh our horses aren’t fit at the upper levels, oh we keep losing places to really get out and condition.” Well, land is cheap and plentiful out west, replete with more types of terrain than your heart could ever desire. But who’s gonna take advantage of it if your season is maybe three events that are probably six to eight hours away from you? Build it and they will come.

And finally, the death of the long format. Which ties into the watering down thing, but it had enough knock on effects I think it deserves a special mention.

I think the difference between eventing and dressage, or eventing and h/j, where people can say “yes, there are problems, but no, I don’t feel disenfranchised” is that the problems that exist (except maybe the issue of safety) don’t really involve uprooting the foundation of the culture of the modern sport and reshaping it. H/J has turned into its own beast. Dressage, I think, is getting close to the point of no return on that. But eventing still has its real rags to riches heroes, and you can still rub elbows with the BNTs at lower level events. The sport is still structured in such a way that Suzie B Goodrider with her athletic, 3500 dollar OTTB can entertain the thought of Kentucky one day without it being an absolute long shot.

And that I think is the crux of the difference. I was shut out of the upper levels of dressage before I even entered. But I haven’t been forced to sit at the kid’s table in eventing.

[Duckz]

@Highflyer

Yeah-- all joking aside, I am an officer for one of our local GMO/CTAs (DVCTA) and have been on the board for MCTA. If you are an AA who competes locally, especially at the unrecognized levels or lower recognized levels, these groups can be a great way to get involved, meet new people, and influence the sport at venues where you actually compete. (Plus earn sweet year end awards.)

Agree. It’s not difficult to be involved, AT ALL. The bigger challenge is not getting pulled in too many different directions.

After thinking on OP’s question, while I don’t agree with everything the USEA does, I certainly don’t feel disenfranchised. I feel like I have ways to make my voice heard. And I have - comments on fb have been answered by high level USEA officials. Not saying they were pleased with me or agreed with me, but I was heard.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

True. Maybe I’m not reading the right threads.
I started out in hunters and I would help with the shows when there was one at the stable where I took lessons.

i loved taking lessons there because there were all.kinds of riders of different backgrounds and levels.

There were a couple of 1% s there but for the most part it was a mixed bag.

I have to say that I didn’t hear any complaints from any of the boarders there about the costs of showing or being priced out of the A circuit.

That’s what I meant about being philosophical about it.
That was my experience.
I’m sure it’s the same in western disciplines, as well.

Some people are covetous and bitter, and dont want to accept responsibility for their lack.

It’s much easier to blame our failure to pin in a class on outside factors instead of allowing the possibility that maybe we just arent good enough.

As to why I even posed the question in the first place, what’s it to you?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Divine Comedy

I don’t know that I feel disenfranchised per se, but I certainly feel frustrated about some of the ways the sport doesn’t think about the way they make things difficult for amateurs specifically.

Primarily the way they schedule things at the upper levels make it extremely difficult for amateurs to participate at FEI and I/A, even on the east coast. Intermediate one-days are always run first thing on Saturday seems like which makes it pretty damn difficult for a working amateur to get their XC course walked once let alone twice. If they are a couple hours away…forget about it.

I’ve put in requests for a local FEI to ride Friday, knowing my level would have Thurs/Fri times, told they would consider it and it probably wouldn’t be a problem, and then without being contacted again end up on Thursday when ride times come out on Tuesday because I’m ‘not a junior’…despite the Friday division not being a junior division with at least one older rider. Not helpful when I planned that way and there’s meetings I have set up on Thursday that I have to reschedule. Prelim Amateur at the AECs is Tues/Wed/Thurs…

And the way the sport in the US handles the payment structure for events is really painful…charging credit cards the second you enter even if it is on opening day, charging fees, then if you scratch prior to closing you don’t get a check from the event until after they run. Potentially that puts you floating the cost of an entry for up to 2 months, while puts you out credit card fees. It would be nice to see entries need to be accompanied by either CC information or checks but without charging the cards until closing date. Then refunds for scratching wouldn’t even be necessary.

It’s just a few reasons that you see more amateurs at P/I/A in England than over here in my opinion that have less to do with money and more to do with just the way things are set up over here. I get that those levels are primarily pros and juniors with a lot more flexibility in their schedule but it would be nice if some simple changes could be looked at to make it easier for amateurs to participate at the higher levels.

Having said that…I’ve tried a couple times to get involved with USEA committees that I feel strongly about and been rebuffed. I could probably try harder or get involved locally though and haven’t. I’ve spread myself pretty thin though the last few years and I just don’t feel like I have the bandwidth to take on much else. And that’s on me, not on anyone else.

honestly… the vast majority of your comments have nothing to do with the USEA. Most of those issues are really just in the control of the organizers and secretaries for the events. Yes, the USEA sets the calendar (for training level and below) and helps organize the rest of the calendar…that is impacted by the FEI and USEF with their own rules and committees. But when divisions run, when ride times are scheduled, and when entry fees are charged, is completely in the control of the organizers for the particular venues.

getting on committees depends on the committees. It is NOT hard to get involved at the area levels. To get involved at the national levels generally requires that you start out volunteering at your area first. And the national level committees require diversity from the areas.

but I DO get it on the scheduling and trying to walk courses. I’ve had the same issues at all levels. And when you are already sleep deprived from a long week at work… it is really tough. I started having to hire someone (or bribe a friend) to come with me to events to drive home as I wasn’t safe (falling asleep at the wheel while towing a trailer is not good!)…and walked more than a few courses in the dark (both at night or more often before the sun came up) and that is not fun.

[whbar158]

IMO having spent time in hunter barns showing at A and AA shows and some time eventing (but not quite at the same level) hunters lean way more towards what the pros and big barns need vs the little people compared to what the lower levels of eventers want. The eventing community is much more made up of smaller groups of individuals compared to hunter land. The lower levels (height wise) at the hunters is more full of clients of those big name trainers. Even at the smaller (but still rated shows) You do not have as many individuals who do it on their own, a good portion are still with a trainer and in program so the pros are catered to and the clients just do what they say. (I know this is not 100% true but its much more common there than in the event world).

[OverandOnward]

One aspect of eventing that I find interesting is the heavy reliance on Adult Amateurs to actually run a horse trials. Of course I am speaking of X-Country jump judges, but also all of the other stations needed to run a horse show and the other two phases as well. It takes an army of volunteers to run a horse trials, and it is the AA’s who both volunteer and find more volunteers among their friends and relatives. Of course juniors and parents volunteer as well, and even community helpers who aren’t into horses, but many of the parents start as AA riders and the AA’s are the backbone of the army.

So many AA eventers go to every horse trial they attend to both ride and volunteer. Without the AA volunteer spirit, there wouldn’t be horse trials, and the organizers are keenly aware of that.

In my experience, the organizers are a good bit of the bridge between the USEA and the AA’s. Most of the AA’s I know are far more actively involved with the organizers and honestly, barely think about the USEA at all except when it is time to renew their dues. And when changes are coming through the rulebook.

Of course many AA’s are actively involved with the USEA and their local eventing associations. But overall, I’ve always been struck by how distant and disconnected so many of the rank & file AA’s are from the USEA.

A great many could not tell you who is president of the USEA, where headquarters is located, when the annual convention is or what goes on there. They don’t follow the website other than the competition calendar. But they do ride the sport and are closely connected with the organizers and with professional trainers. It’s been like that in my area for as long as I’ve been close to eventing.

And most of the eventers I know don’t follow COTH, and are therefore not responding in this thread.

[Janet]

Yes, volunteers are essential to Eventing.

I am an Eventing TD, and I always start the Jump Judges’ briefing thanking them for volunteering. The sport of Eventing would not exist without the volunteers. A couple of years ago someone did an analysis and concluded that, if every volunteer was paid minimum wage, entry fees,even at the lowest divisions,would be over $2,000.

[Divine_Comedy]

@bornfreenowexpensive

honestly… the vast majority of your comments have nothing to do with the USEA. Most of those issues are really just in the control of the organizers and secretaries for the events. Yes, the USEA sets the calendar (for training level and below) and helps organize the rest of the calendar…that is impacted by the FEI and USEF with their own rules and committees. But when divisions run, when ride times are scheduled, and when entry fees are charged, is completely in the control of the organizers for the particular venues.

getting on committees depends on the committees. It is NOT hard to get involved at the area levels. To get involved at the national levels generally requires that you start out volunteering at your area first. And the national level committees require diversity from the areas.

but I DO get it on the scheduling and trying to walk courses. I’ve had the same issues at all levels. And when you are already sleep deprived from a long week at work… it is really tough. I started having to hire someone (or bribe a friend) to come with me to events to drive home as I wasn’t safe (falling asleep at the wheel while towing a trailer is not good!)…and walked more than a few courses in the dark (both at night or more often before the sun came up) and that is not fun.

I do agree that the scheduling is completely in the hands of the organizers, but I do wish there could be a little bit of working together with other area organizers so different shows are scheduled slightly differently which would let people with different schedules pick and choose which events would work best for them. And I would think USEA/USEA might be able to help guide that process a bit more…for instance almost every single one day in Area II seems to schedule their Intermediate for first thing Saturday morning. It would be lovely if some could switch so that they run first thing Sunday, allowing for safe XC walking in the daylight on Saturday, preferably multiple times so amateurs who are less experienced at the levels to walk as carefully as they’d like.

I also sort of agree that it is up to events to determine when to cash checks, but both Event Entries (third party) and Xentry (USEA) charge cards immediately. Neither of these payment methods is in control of the organizer. This is going to make people try to enter as close to closing date as possible, which doesn’t help organizers. The USEA in particular has control of Xentry…I wouldn’t think it would be that difficult for them to immediately charge the CC entered with the office fee only, therefore verifying the payment info is valid, and wait to charge the full entry and stabling fee on closing day.

And in regards to committees, I did address that I could try to get involve locally first and just haven’t. I’ve been spread quite thin the past few years and I’m not sure how wise adding another layer would be, so my efforts at becoming involved have been tepid.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Janet

A couple of years ago someone did an analysis and concluded that, if every volunteer was paid minimum wage, entry fees, even at the lowest divisions, would be over $2,000.

FWIW, there is a “standard” hourly wage value placed on a volunteer hour. For 2019, that is $25.43/hour. This is the value placed on volunteer hours for non-profits.

A bit more than minimum wage

[bornfreenowexpensive]

DC—-write in your evaluation of the events about scheduling Intermediate on Sunday…I do think there are other riders who want Saturday (or Friday). Also some venues just run one day and their schedule is dictated by the landowners…however, it never hurts to voice your opinion. I get it…I used to have to take a day off from work as I just couldn’t get it all done for Saturday events (at any level). It did help when I started getting more help (hiring a groom)…but that doesn’t solve everything…and I’ve gotten nowhere with enacting a 36 hour day.

[Divine_Comedy]

@bornfreenowexpensive

DC—-write in your evaluation of the events about scheduling Intermediate on Sunday…I do think there are other riders who want Saturday (or Friday). Also some venues just run one day and their schedule is dictated by the landowners…however, it never hurts to voice your opinion. I get it…I used to have to take a day off from work as I just couldn’t get it all done for Saturday events (at any level). It did help when I started getting more help (hiring a groom)…but that doesn’t solve everything…and I’ve gotten nowhere with enacting a 36 hour day.

BFNE…I have often expressed the scheduling opinion in event reviews (I ALWAYS write them because events need to know the good things, the weird things and the not so great things, just so they can be aware of and try to improve if they wish!). I do this sometimes for events I don’t even go to, to let them know why I wasn’t able to come despite perhaps wanting to come (usually for scheduling reasons). I’ve never seen any event do schedule changes or even acknowledge that scheduling can make things tough for certain groups of people. This would be a moment when I feel ‘disenfranchised’ so to say.

I perhaps haven’t mentioned the running Intermediate on Sunday or alternating years because it’s not something I’m asking for at every event…it’s something that I wish as an Area we might coordinate a little better so that different events have different division schedules. That provides options for everyone…if you prefer a Saturday Intermediate, then there’s some available but if you need Sunday, other shows have that. Instead it’s pretty much one size fits all right now, and I guess I haven’t felt that writing to one event really helps because I don’t care if they specifically are the ones to offer the different schedule…I just want choice! What happens if I write to all of them and they ALL change their schedules?! :lol:

I’ll mention it in my reviews anyways this year…if we ever get back to competing.

And of course I agree if you have only one day then you really have no choice.

I too have tried to pick up a groom when I can but I won’t let them drive my rig and I also don’t have a groom I can just call up and ask…I have to ask around on FB and then hope their skills are sufficient, show them where everything belongs and also hope they tolerate me on show day! I get a little totalitarian on those days…Trying to train my extremely non-horsey husband to do some basic things but he accidentally got studded last year holding the horse while I was looking for a lost shoe in warm-up! He’s a big help to have along even so, but would definitely be amazing if I had a friend I could call up and pay who could deal with the horse while I deal with myself and my rig, who knew my stuff and where I keep everything, etc.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

DC—its off topic a bit but I can tell you that organizers DO discuss the scheduling. The issue is you never can please everyone. As Area chair…I read all the reviews…I swear I will get one review for an event criticizing one thing and then another praising the same exact thing. It really is thankless.

As for the grooms at events…it is tough. I was a paid groom for two different adult amateurs who were competing at Advanced for several years before I got too busy…and even as a lawyer…I got begged by one of them to groom at some of the bigger events (as I knew them well and their horse). Everyone struggles to find a good match for them. Personally…I’d teach your husband to drive the rig…unless he hates that sort of thing. Or try and find someone with potential as a groom and work with them a few times. Most it takes a few times To gel with your system. But there are more and more people doing freelance grooming…but you have to use the same person a few times…and not everyone can afford to pay for them (or worse…you train them and they go work for someone else). Or find someone younger and give them the experience. I learned a ton early on by someone who did that for me and then made sure that I went on all the course walks etc. It was a win win for both of us. But it really is hard…and unfortunately always has been…when you are juggling multiple horses (or even one), working and eventing.

[Jealoushe]

off topic but the best way to find a groom is to make one! I have had a few teens or young adults that I have helped out with riding etc free of charge, and in exchange they come help at events.

[flyingchange]

First world problems extraordinaire

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@flyingchange

First world problems extraordinaire

yup. No one is acting like it isn’t.

[merrygoround]

@skydy

Will you be asking the H/J people next, about USHJA? You have asked about USDF and USEF on the Dressage forum.

Yes!! She has.

[merrygoround]

@skydy

Bolded is mine. Really? You haven’t seen people on the H/J forum complain about the price of hunters and H/J shows?

I suspect that Madame Beaverhausen is among the unessential, and now has time on her hands to Forum hop and rabble rouse.

Having been active in both Dressage and Eventing disciplines, I’d say eventing is a different breed of rider. Much more supportive of each other. And seldom snooty.