AAs of the $40K and under market: what was your shopping experience like?

[Libby2563]

@dmveventer

What would you say a novice packer is going for these days, as a ballpark estimate? I’m hoping to start shopping next year and I honestly have no idea what to expect, or whether I’ll even be able to find something in my well-under-$40k budget. I love the idea of bringing along project horses in the future, but right now I’m relatively new to eventing and in an ideal world I would buy something safe and sane that will put up with me while I keep improving my own riding.

This is where I was 3 years ago (switching to eventing from upper-level dressage) except I wanted a horse proven at Prelim or at least Training. I had started out with a seemingly nice OTTB (from a reputable reseller) who turned out to be explosive with no apparent sense of self-preservation. I realized that I would rather spend some money upfront to learn from a horse that was less likely to kill me because eventing is risky enough as it is. Before the OTTB I’d lost a 5-year-old horse to DSLD so I also wanted something that had proven to stay sound doing what I wanted to do.

I was looking for a gelding with experience at Prelim and a strong XC record, under 11 years old, preferably between 15.2 and 17 hh, for under $30k. Sounds like a pipe dream I guess because that’s what everyone wants, but I did find it! Granted this was before the market went quite so crazy.

@tres_grey

• What kinds of compromises were you willing to make?

I was accepting of TBs and of mediocre movers / dressage scores. With my dressage background I knew I could improve that, and I couldn’t afford a safe, scopey Prelim horse who also wins the dressage.

I didn’t want explosive again but was fine with hot or tricky, so I wasn’t looking for a packer per se and probably couldn’t have afforded one.

I also didn’t demand extensive info from the seller of the horse I eventually bought before going to see him. His Eventing Nation ad consisted of a couple lines of text that didn’t really do him justice, one tiny blurry picture, and no videos. I drove 2 hours to see him based on his show record, a year-old video from a show videographer’s YouTube channel, and a phone call with the seller. She said other people wouldn’t come at all without videos—their loss, as it turns out. The YouTube video was completely accurate: crap dressage, a fantastic front end over fences, and a serious get-it-done attitude XC.

My boy is exactly what I wanted and I’m still kind of amazed I could afford him. A nicer mover with his show record would easily have cost $60k+. But in our last five HTs he’s come home with one blue ribbon, two reds, and two TIP awards so who really needs the fancy mover anyway, right!?

It did take a lot of work to develop his dressage and our partnership to that point though. He had been competed by a male BNT and when I bought him I couldn’t even jump him in an arena in less than a gag. Now we are going Modified XC in a snaffle. We have both learned so much from each other!

I still find it kind of sad that such a brave, honest, athletic horse was relatively undesirable because he’s a 15.3 hh (advertised as 16 hh of course) TB with a crappy walk and trot…

[Jealoushe]

I believe it’s common for the older ones to be sold, they usually go on as school masters from what I have seen. They are really lovely horses.

[Jealoushe]

They also travel a lot so a horse that doesn’t travel well won’t make the cut.

[mdp9]

Based on your username, you are in my area (northern VA).

I have had two clients spend under $25k for horses with records through Training with juniors or AAs, both serviceably sound (need injections, imperfect vettings, etc.) but the horses are both very very quiet and safe.

A third bought a BN/N packer for about that price- sacrificed a good mover for the safest glorified school pony with a perfect vetting.

They were looking for several months and tried more than a few horses!

For a Novice packer I would say a budget of $20k is hard but might be possible. $25k is more doable. Anything more than that is great and will open up more options.

[subk]

A year ago I was looking for a BN packer with potential to go N for my adult daughter who is an intermediate rider without much show experience. We had a 20k budget–25k for absolutely the perfect specimen. We we looking for something along the lines of a draftX or quarterhorseX, 16 hands, gelding. I had 6 horses fail PPEs in about 4 months–I’m not even that picky. Sound on the day the vet comes out then flexions to show us if there is anything we should radiograph. Happy to do some maintenance, not looking for perfection. Not just failed, but 6 spectacularly failed.

We ended up buying something 2000 miles away based on videos. A 5 year old horse bred for a dude ranch who was just a little too spicy (and smart) for your average city slicker who doesn’t ride. WTC and is happy to jump. We were within our budget including shipping plus a month on arrival with our trainer.

Fundamentally, we couldn’t find anything reasonably sound, big enough for a 6’ woman, who had any eventing experience and wasn’t older than about 17 in our budget a year ago through regular buying channels. I used a trainer that buys and sells probably 15-20 lower level horses a year.

Most everyone here is talking about the $0-20K market. I do think a $20-40k budget can get you pretty much what you want for the lower levels as long as you aren’t looking for UL potential. There was plenty in that market that would have served, but honestly I’ve been doing this so long that it just kind of turned my stomach what you get for that kind of money.

[LittleMare]

@tres_grey

• What criteria were you looking for?
• Where did you look for your horse?
• What kinds of compromises were you willing to make?
• Anything you found surprising during your search?

I bought my horse in May. He was a care lease from February to May because of my trainers connection with his old trainer.

I was looking for sound! I had to sell my promising OTTB in February to a flat only home due to lameness issues in multiple limbs. My compromises were on considering hotter, spookier, and greener. I have a fabulous trainer and am still somewhat at the age where I bounce.

We looked mostly on FB groups.

The part I found surprising? When I started pulling research papers, I was shocked and dismayed by how little correlation there is between radiographic change and soundness. That’s why I ended up buying my lease horse. He has sarcoids, but other than that he’s been sound eventing at novice for 4 years. And his owner had 3 yo rads I could compare to his 12 yo rads.

Also he is 100% capable of winning the dressage. And he is a genuinely nice, kind horse. He is spooky and is not a packer jumping. But he is just an all around nice person. Considering he will win the dressage, and with the right ride (which my trainer can give and I sometimes can lol) he will jump clear at novice and now at training, his owner let him go at a steal, much less than my planned budget of $20-25k. I did stash some of that away for if/when sarcoids crop up.

[pluvinel]

@LittleMare

When I started pulling research papers, I was shocked and dismayed by how little correlation there is between radiographic change and soundness.

Totally agree. I always say to vet the seller instead of the horse. The seller has lived with the animal and, if honest, will provide a buyer a better view of the horse’s past and future soundness.

I bought German papered Hanoverian yearling for real cheap because he had “questionable X-rays” of the left hock. The breeding was great and I was willing to lose the money. After I had bought the horse I went to a vet and showed her the radiographs. She said, “Don’t buy.” Well, the deed was long done.

Fast forward 12 years. I decided to sell the horse to buy a Lusitano stallion. Took the Hanno to New Bolton. Did bilateral X-rays, which showed the RIGHT hock was worse than the left…but there had been no changes to the Left joint in 12 years and the horse had never been lame.

I sold him to a H/J rider for about 1/2 the purchase price of the Luso…and last I heard she was very happy with him.

[r.matey]

I’m yet another one looking for something young (ideally 5-8), brave, fun, uncomplicated - with some experience at BN or N and potential to go T max - who I will likely keep for his or her life.

When I started shopping (over a year ago) I thought I had plenty of budget that I wouldn’t have to compromise on character, age, experience, or general soundness - but here I am still shopping. I have a teenaged gelding I’m retiring after years working through various medical issues, so I’m gunshy on soundness and age - I wouldn’t be able to add a third if I had 2 relatively young retirees.

I’ve been shopping with a trainer and personally looking mostly at various FB groups. I’m in a non-horsey area and it’s been expensive to travel to try stuff - I’m now gunshy about that too after a few costly disappointments.

I’ve been very close to just buying something green and relatively inexpensive (<$10k) off video. I promised myself when I started shopping I would get something already going because life is short and I want to be out having fun and advancing my riding — but it’s getting harder every month to stick to the plan when I know I could bring another total green bean along if I need to.

Indifferent on breed, color, somewhat on height (I’m tall and solid, and don’t like to feel like I could click my heels underneath or might pitch over the neck - so will look at anything over 15.2ish that isn’t obviously narrow or delicate). I want one that likes to hack out, is personable, curious about life, kind, self-going but listens to come back, enjoys both jumping and dressage (I’m a big fan of both) — so basically if anyone has such a creature I have no idea why they’d sell it. I’m hoping to hit on a seller who loves starting sensible young ones or is dreaming of P+ so needs more horse than they’ve got.

[quietann]

@subk

I had 6 horses fail PPEs in about 4 months–I’m not even that picky. Sound on the day the vet comes out then flexions to show us if there is anything we should radiograph. Happy to do some maintenance, not looking for perfection. Not just failed, but 6 spectacularly failed.

Without getting too specific, because the eventing world is small, what caused them to fail? I am just curious about what peoples’ no-goes are, should I ever buy another horse.

In 2008, my very low 5 figures mare “passed” her PPE as appropriate for low level eventing, with a +1 flexion on her LH, a note that she toes in, and has straight hind legs (I have seen far worse). The vet said he regularly did PPEs on high five figures WBs that were worse. The eventing part got tossed pretty quickly, because I had a bad fall off another horse and was advised not to jump anymore (we did, a little). The LH needed suspensory surgery 2 years after I bought her. And keeping her sound for low level dressage and not too strenuous trail riding seemed like a full time job at times. I did finally give up after 14 years, and she’s having a good retirement.

[Xanthoria]

I did 5 PPEs in 7 months and the last one I bought the horse. The others failed on:

1. Lame on lunge, attending vet said do not proceed - no imaging, seller never could get him sound enough for us to return. So they kept jumping him at 1.30m…
2. Major KS on spine rads
3. 5 page radiology report - very few areas without issues including neck
4. Stifles described as 50/50 chance of major issues within a year

[ExpialidociousOTTB]

@Xanthoria

Lame on lunge, attending vet said do not proceed - no imaging, seller never could get him sound enough for us to return. So they kept jumping him at 1.30m…

This is similar to what happened with one I vetted, I rode the horse at seller’s, they allowed me to take her home on trial. I loved her at home, but realized she had a notably toed-out front leg (wasn’t super clear at seller’s place, bc she was in bell boots). I had my vet out and warned her about toed-out front leg - I felt beyond dumb when she was unsound on the jog on firm ground. I had noticed she was a bit more difficult to ride going one direction, but I didn’t know she was unsound - embarrassing considering I’d been dealing with my TB being super lame from KS for about a year at that point. The feet also had an odd wear pattern, which I had not noticed. My vet told me it was a chronic issue and not to buy her.

I was heartbroken and reached out to seller to see if they’d help me with diagnostics - I wanted to buy her if she could be sound - they became pretty defensive and it was clear to me at that time that they knew she was not sound. I took her back, sobbing all the way… and she returned to jumping 3’6”. I can’t bring myself to look to see if she ever sold. It hurts, knowing I took her back to that big job. Such a kind horse. I still think about her often.

The pony I ended up purchasing has both front feet turned out. But is sound.

[pony_grandma]

I’ve walked away from many that I cried about and tried not to wonder …

[SillyHorse]

@EADoug

The Canadian RCMP is holding an auction for their breeding program. Range from 1yr to 17yr olds. The younger ones are not the right colour, the others are not the right ‘temperament’ for the Musical Ride program… what that means exactly I’m not sure. I would assume that they are well handled at the very least?

Apparently they usually average around $12-15k.

https://gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=ach-shop&jstp=sly&hpsr=&hpcs=8800&vndsld=0&saleType=A

If I were in the market, I’d be jumping on this.

[Scaramouch]

@EADoug

Apparently they usually average around $12-15k.

Usually, perhaps. At this point the 4-8 year olds are already approaching $12,000 with a week of bidding left to go. Except the one that’s conformationally “unsuitable” for demanding work and the one with a previous injury…

Personally if I’m going to buy a young warmblood for five figures and have to put a good bit of training into it (which I may end up doing!) a dressage-bred Hanoverian is not going to be my first choice.

[EADoug]

@Scaramouch

Usually, perhaps. At this point the 4-8 year olds are already approaching $12,000 with a week of bidding left to go. Except the one that’s conformationally “unsuitable” for demanding work and the one with a previous injury…

Personally if I’m going to buy a young warmblood for five figures and have to put a good bit of training into it (which I may end up doing!) a dressage-bred Hanoverian is not going to be my first choice.

I don’t have much experience following this auction, I actually just randomly saw a national news article covering it more as the ‘goodwill’ type story - Look at the pretty horses for sale by the RCMP! They did state that last auction the highest price was $35, but average was $12-15.

@Jealoushe sounded much more familiar with their actual training experience and previous auctions.

[beowulf]

@Scaramouch

Personally if I’m going to buy a young warmblood for five figures and have to put a good bit of training into it (which I may end up doing!) a dressage-bred Hanoverian is not going to be my first choice.

Why is that? Genuine question.

[Jealoushe]

@EADoug

@Jealoushe sounded much more familiar with their actual training experience and previous auctions.

Yes, @scaramouch the horses are started and trained by FEI riders and Olympians.

[Scaramouch]

Mostly personal bias. I’ve previously owned TBs and enjoy them, so ideally would like a horse with xx in the first two generations. I’m sure a lot of dressage-bred WBs could be lovely lower-level event horses!

However this is a thread about the eventing horse market (and I do have aspirations above Novice) so I’m not sure what economic sense it makes to be in competition with dressage buyers and their generally deeper pockets.

@Jealoushe I’m sure the RCMP horses are fantastic and I didn’t mean to imply that they should be cheap. I was just pointing out that it they don’t seem to be the most logical outlet for a deal on an eventing prospect. At least not this year!

[Jealoushe]

Honestly the best place for cheap ammie horses is the horse dealers with draft crosses and QH/Paint types. Theres a guy close to me that has them in all the time, they sell average$4-5k and they are broke to death just most haven’t done any actual training other than trails or lessons.

Most would turn into fabulous ammie eventers. People don’t often look at the Western horses though.

[beowulf]

Gotcha. I like TBs too.

I liked this one - if he sells for $5.8k that’s an absolute steal:
https://gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=429003&lcn=578098&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1&lotnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos&saleType=A

I can’t say anything negative about the dressage bred Hanoverians. I’m getting my butt kicked by them in low level eventing on a regular basis.