? about breeder blistering stifles

[Claudius]

Parrotnutz

I am assuming that you had a prepurchase exam? And the vet Passed this horse as a sound young prospect? And you are thinking that that means you started with a NEW horse, fresh out of the box with the paper seal untouched?? That would be a foal. Any horse that has been started and especially if it is big and growthy, is more than likely going to have something that needs to be managed. I think most of us who have replied to your post are trying to help you not to panic…stifle management is part of horsemanship…it may be the weakest joint in the horse’s body…it is definitely the one most affected by rapid growth. While I am not defending the blanket blistering of all her young horses’ stifles, I think she is just trying to be proactive about avoiding the ramifications of weak stifles in most young horses.

When I was conditioning race horses, some very famous trainers required that I routinely paint their front shins and ankles as soon as they began galloping. Some of these horses went to the two year old in training sales. They explained that they were having me do this to avoid early shin bucks …I do not think when they sold at the auction that it was considered something that should be “disclosed”…it was management. Agree with it or not, these trainers were being proactive with their young horses, based on their vast experience. I was a country girl, conditioning horses on the glorious hills of Unionville Pa. and I did what they asked…who was I to disagree with such luminaries as Lucien Lauren, Frank Whitely or Danny Perlsweig???

[Laurierace]

Painting shins and internally blistering stifles are on such opposite ends of the spectrum that they do not belong in the same conversation in my opinion.

[Home_Again_Farm]

@Laurierace;6266367

I agree that blistering stifles isn’t that big of a deal but I don’t buy that it was done as a matter of course as opposed to in response to a problem. So like with most things I think your problem is deceptiveness.

Agree. :yes::yes::yes:

[RyTimMick]

@Laurierace;6266612

Painting shins and internally blistering stifles are on such opposite ends of the spectrum that they do not belong in the same conversation in my opinion.

I agree.

Tim

[Claudius]

I agree in practice…but it was an example of proactive management…nothing was wrong at that time with those colts’ ankles…although I would not inject anything proactively, I can accept that a known weakness in growthy colts might be proactively addressed the way the seller did.

[Laurierace]

I disagree. I think it would be foolish to undertake any invasive procedure for no reason. But stranger things have happened so who knows?

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6269067]
I disagree. I think it would be foolish to undertake any invasive procedure for no reason. But stranger things have happened so who knows?[/QUOTE]

Thanks…I will be taking him to the clinic for a workup at the end of the month to see if there is anything else that was not disclosed…fingers crossed the answer is no.

[Laurierace]

The clinic seems extreme. I would spend $30 and get a bottle of estrone and see if that does the trick first.

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6269266]
The clinic seems extreme. I would spend $30 and get a bottle of estrone and see if that does the trick first.[/QUOTE]

Already doing that…estrone not doing it

[Laurierace]

That’s too bad. In my experience it either does nothing or works miracles. What protocol ie dose and frequency are you following? ECP is worth a shot too.

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6269423]
That’s too bad. In my experience it either does nothing or works miracles. What protocol ie dose and frequency are you following? ECP is worth a shot too.[/QUOTE]

Tried ECP first…that did nothing.
Estrone…I was told to give 10 once a week…some difference after 4th dose but not significant.

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=Parrotnutz;6266466]
BINGO!! I would have appreciated full disclosure…now I have stopped all “training” so I can spend the time trying to strengthen the stifles and am taking him to the clinic for a once over the end of the month to make sure it is just a weakness.

He is not straight in his hind legs…he is extremely short backed and shark withered so when I got him his back was slightly sore due to saddle fit the vet and I thought. I have a short backed saddle for him and his back seems better since he was accupunctured and have been riding him in the new saddle.[/QUOTE]

There should be no reason to “stop all training” while spending the time strengthening his stifle – those things should not be mutually exclusive. First, did the breeder tell you she blistered his stifle at four because it locked? Maybe you or others don’t agree with her management practices (if she routinely blisters for strength, but that seems to be a different conversation).

Locking can occur at anytime and can be brought on by different types of work, footing, etc – sometimes it is a passing thing that happens for no immediately obvious reason. I had a pony that had never locked before in its life suddenly do it on a monday after being in Florida for a couple of weeks. Estrone and consistent work solved that problem and it has never happened again in the last 6 years. If your PPE did not show anything, I would find it unusual to go the clinic looking for something because his stifle locked – is it locked all the time? There are normally a number of things that can be tried before looking at any invasive options, etc. And if you did a PPE, my feeling is I don’t really go hunting for problems because honestly there is always something you can find.

Did you try ECP more than one time?

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6266367]
I agree that blistering stifles isn’t that big of a deal but I don’t buy that it was done as a matter of course as opposed to in response to a problem. So like with most things I think your problem is deceptiveness.[/QUOTE]

This seems like a pretty strong statement with the limited information available. I don’t think it is fair to insinuate the breeder is deceptive based on what has been provided so far.

[Laurierace]

I give 10ccs IM every other day for a total of 3 doses then once per week. As stated before, I do not believe anyone would internally blister a horse without cause so if the breeder is saying that I do not believe them.

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6269739]
I give 10ccs IM every other day for a total of 3 doses then once per week. As stated before, I do not believe anyone would internally blister a horse without cause so if the breeder is saying that I do not believe them.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I don’t believe there was no problem…I have been giving 10cc weekly as per barn vet and working him to condition him…my vet at the clinic will do a look/see…to make sure it is only locking stifles. Being I bought him in Nov. I believe better safe than sorry…pre-purchase does not include an ulta-sound and my vet will not waste my money if she thinks I don’t need to do anything else…thanks for your opinion…I value it.

[MandyVA]

Do you have him on 24x7 turnout? Even after two surgeries it only fully resolved in my warmblood when I got him in a full turnout situation.

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6269739]
I give 10ccs IM every other day for a total of 3 doses then once per week. As stated before, I do not believe anyone would internally blister a horse without cause so if the breeder is saying that I do not believe them.[/QUOTE]

My point is the “cause” doesn’t have to be that his stifle was locking at that time. Maybe he was weak behind like many young growing warmbloods? Maybe it was something more or he was locking, but the OP didn’t say that was the breeders reason and perhaps it wasn’t. Maybe his situation is different enough from where he came from – even though I am sure the OP is giving him the best care, maybe he had more T/O at the breeders so this locking issue wasn’t present until he was stalled more, etc. While the breeder may be deceptive (I certainly can’t know) it just doesn’t seem fair to ASSUME she’s being deceptive based on the limited info on her side thus far.

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6270369]
My point is the “cause” doesn’t have to be that his stifle was locking at that time. Maybe he was weak behind like many young growing warmbloods? Maybe it was something more or he was locking, but the OP didn’t say that was the breeders reason and perhaps it wasn’t. Maybe his situation is different enough from where he came from – even though I am sure the OP is giving him the best care, maybe he had more T/O at the breeders so this locking issue wasn’t present until he was stalled more, etc. While the breeder may be deceptive (I certainly can’t know) it just doesn’t seem fair to ASSUME she’s being deceptive based on the limited info on her side thus far.[/QUOTE]

I emailed her and played “matter of fact” and said his stifles were locking and that my vet wanted to know what she did in the past. She said she blistered his stifles and he must need it again. She only back pedaled and said she does it to strengthen the young ones stifles after I said to her that she did not disclose important information that I should have known.

[Blume_Farm]

I agree the seller should have disclosed if she blistered his stifles. For the past 3 years I started keeping a detailed journal of everything on my horses, including “medical” stuff. I made a really nice binder for each horse with a section for farrier, veterinary, show records, USEF/USDF papers, etc. For example this is my 3 year old’s “medical” section thus far for 2012: abscess 2/12 LF resolved 5 days, 3/12 mild impaction colic resolved nasogastric tube water/oil and banamine. Periodic upward fixation of his right patella 1/12 & 2/12, seems resolved 3/12 since starting work. I will give a copy of this journal to any interested person/ buyer. That may be extreme but I have the records and only feel it right to pass along…this way his new owners have his complete “history” from birth and are making a completely clear decision. No “wish I knew that” moments.

Now, having said all that if your horse’s only problem is upward fixation of his patella then that should be resolvable (so that is good!). Blistering and serious hill work has worked wonders for my mare. Every once in awhile she will start a work session a bit “hippity hoppity” but quickly warms right out of it. I would keep you horse in as active work as possible. Ironically I had an appointment with my vet yesterday (board certified equine surgeon, lameness specialist) and we discussed upward fixation of the patella. Now he is a super proactive vet…from the train of thought “fix it before it becomes a bigger problem”. He does a lot of stifle blistering and has a lot of success with the procedure. He felt he would not blister a large growing WB until they hit 5-6 years old and the problem persisted past an aggressive hill exercise regimine. He feels the vast majority will resolve with fitness and finishing growth…but if it doesn’t blistering usually will.

[Claudius]

ljcfoh

I agree with your post. And I disagree with Laurierace…I don’t know how much things may have changed in the horse business since I was in it…but thirty years ago it was common practice to internally blister stifles when a horse showed weakness behind. They did not necessarily have to be lame YET…some trainers tried to avoid lameness by addressing weakness that preceeds lameness. In my experience, this was a very valid and successful precaution…it worked…backs didn’t get sore, hocks didn’t get sore, ankles didn’t blow up…I hated getting them sent to me when all of the above had occured…it took so much longer to get them comfortable and strong enough to get in condition to race.