Absolutely Amazing!

[Bea]

I don’t think this colt should be bred. Without a performance and/or produce record, bloodlines are nothing but lines on a piece of paper. Look at human families, I’m one of four siblings, skills, athleticism, and some might say intelligence varies greatly amongst us. In my experience it tends to be similar for horse families. Look at most broodmare produce records, the vast majority of the time the records of her offspring vary tremendously. It’s a rare broodmare that consistently produces outstanding foal after outstanding foal. When someone says to me, I’ve got a mare, never shown or produced but she’s a full sister to x, a picture of my full sister pops into my head, four inches shorter than me, asthmatic, but far more intelligent.

I’m sure you TB folks do the same, but I spend a lot of time looking at produce records for AQHA reining studs. Take total number of offspring, minus number not of performing age, divide the number of performing offspring by that number. And you get % of offspring who are performers. Not necessarily great performers, but have some record however small. Average number to come up with for say the top 50 studs in the country? 50% Very small portion of the top 50 might have between 55-65%. So that means 50% of the offspring of the very top reining studs end up with a performance record. And the top reining studs have extensive performance records of their own. 50% offspring with performance records is considered the best breeding odds on paper. That’s pretty risky numbers.

A 501©3 rescue group I feel should set the highest example of responsible breeding. Taking a colt with no performance record (and no one has even mentioned his conformation) and breeding him, in my mind is not setting the highest example.

[SeaOat]

Flat isn’t the precipitant so much as turf vs dirt. Turf runners often get winters off, adding to their shelf-life…while SCing is on the turf, I’m guessing they have a higher career ending injury rate.
Any horse given proper breaks (or simply resisting the wear & tear above most) is likely to shine their best around 5 & 6, IMO.
Fillies can be tricky, as they are generally more stoical workers, working through pain & not as quickly giving in to it. (Boys are bigger cry-babies ) So when training girls, you probably have to be more in tune w/ them, I think.

[Sandbarhorse]

IMO, it’s not me who doesn’t see the forest for the trees. If a rescue can put a horse or dog (though I agree with Bald Eagle about the not transferring ownership issue)in a place where they will be bred responsibly and that allows them to get other animals out of situations where they are not being cared for/bred responsibly then I really don’t see a problem.

The issue is really responsibility and education. You can’t legislate either of those any more than you can honestly stop irresponsibility or stupidity. If you think keeping this horse from being bred or even all the horses that are “rescued” you are going to fix the problem, dream on. At least if a rescue supports the breeding of quality individuals in a responsible home, perhaps they’ve at least kept quality individuals available, that are less likely to end up (at least in the case of horses, small animal owners are even harder to understand)at the slaughter house.

FWIW, I don’t agree with rescues spending loads of money re-habbing some of their rescues, who will never be useful for anything. Haven’t they already suffered enough? I’d rather see them euthanize them and spend the $$ on horses that can truly be helped. My biggest issue with slaughter is the conditions leading up to it, not the fact the someone else wants to eat the horse or that the horse will be killed. It’s better than many of the alternatives, if the transport, etc. can be fixed.

Anyway, enough of my opinion and ramblings, my goal was mainly to show that there may be more than one rational way to view things and that the alternative view has to be taken into consideration.

Oh and someone asked if I’d take this horse. Yep, if I had a way to keep him away from my mare, I’d love to see what his problems really are.

[Epitome]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Well…I guess that we have come full circle here folks…because the horse that this post was originally about came from a large, successful breeding farm.

The Fingerlakes TB Race Track alone is supposedly sending about twenty horses per week to the infamous New Holland auction. This speaks volumes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A large successful breeding farm that sold him to a small time breeder, not to the auction for slaughter. The buyer, unfortunately wanted to have a cheap stallion to breed, rather than spend money on stud fees.

But gee, who is thinking of breeding this stallion now? A horse rescue! Thereby providing more poorly bred horses for the kill pens, just because he has Danzig as a sire! Danzig alone doesn’t make him stallion material, folks.

And a whole racetrack that sends a whopping 20 horses per week to the New Holland auction. Whoop do doodle! Who is it that send the other several hundred every week? Oh, please…

[Flash44]

Just because a horse that is for sale does not sell and ends up at the auction does not mean that there was not a market for the horse, or the horse had little or no value.

Having recent horse shopped, I can tell you that advertising is everything. There are WAAAY too many horses for sale for me to even consider going to see a horse who’s photo I did not see first. There were a kabillion text only ads that fit my criteria, how to sort through them?

The horse I ended up buying was through luck. I went to see one horse, did not like it, and they pulled the one I bought out of the field. Loved her immediately. I asked, “why wasn’t she on (website?)” She was, but the price was “Private treaty,” and no pic was included. So I never saw the ad.

[SeaOat]

SANDBARHORSE said with emphasis:
“The issue is really responsibility and education.”

Yes that’s true. That’s why the lesson a rescue teaches when they abandon their own message is especially criticle.

This horse is fairly well bred on the bottom as well & might have deserved a shot. But as fate has it he has (luckily) ended up in the hands of a rescue operation. Think how much they could teach by NOT breeding this horse. By NOT taking $$ for him as a breeding stallion. By setting an example, not bending one.
It’s my understanding that an appraisal of the colt is pending. I would hope that even if higher than expected, he would still set a better example for a better cause than breeding.

[windycity]

Laurierace-

I’ve been lurking…sorry you have had some of the usual stiring of the hornets nest with this case. I think it’s great – the story and the outcome.

On a public forum people are going to air their opinions; clearly or not; kindly or not. But I for one appreciate you posting on this and I am sure many of us sould love to hear updates. He is a lovely boy and I am thrilled he was saved.

Best of luck.

[Flash44]

Me me me me me me me!!! I want him, not for a stallions, but for a spoiled rotten show horse with lots of grass and good food and a nice warm stall!!!

And I’m already in MD!!!

[Heather]

Just want to comment on the notion that “good horses don’t go to slaugter”.

Well, I’ve found that to be both true and not true.

We have a horse we got for free of the meat truck. He is 17.2, gorgeous, a ten mover and has a world class jump. He has multiple ribbons at the prelim level in eventing, and is aiming for a three day. By all quantitaive measures he is more than a “good” horse.

That being said, when we got him, it was very clear why he had ended up with the killers. He was a miserable spook and very barn/buddy sour, and this behavior manifested itself in violent and dangerous ways. In the process of re-schooling him, both my husband and myself were injured and required a trip to the emergency room. I fell off of him more than any horse Ihave ever owned or ridden. He has a spin bolt rear maneuver that is second to none. He trusted noone and nothing. He was going to get away before anything could hurt him, and if you were in the way that was just too bad for you.

It’s not his fault, he had terrible handling for much of his life, and got bullied and beaten a lot. But it doesnt change the fact that I was a sucker for his face marking, and he was a dangerous horse.

We’ve had him for 6 years, and though he is generally easy to handle these days, and is a successful competitor, you just have to know that he has quirks that will never be disolved. He is claustrophobic in the extreme (dark barns, dark, enclosed tunnel like areas on the trail, etc, will bring out the spin), and will still balk when asked to leave a friend. We generally take him to events alone, because if he rides solo in the trailer, he is good, but if we take another horse he is a monster all day.

So while he’s a good horse, any horse in the killer pens is there for a reason, either physical or mental. Now, that doesn’t make them unworthy of assitance, and often only a minimum of effort can fix whatever the issue is. But, sound, sane, easy, young horses do not end up in the kill pens. Fancy horses with screws loose do, nice horses with soundness issues do. Old horses do. Again, I’m not saying it’s OK, or that there isn’t value to be found in these horses. But let’s be honest about what’s there and why.

Oh, and I don’t like the black and white, pro or anti slaughter views given here. I’m not anti-slaughter, but I take exception to being compared to the Pope donating Smarty Jones to New Holland. Rather I consider myself “sorrowfully accpeting”. I wish no horses had to go to slaughter. I accept that some will. I believe that if a horse has served you faithfully, and especially has made you a ton of money, you have a duty to provide for it.

[free]

Heather…from the sound of the people that you deal with…it sounds as though we should breed more hortses and less humans.

[windycity]

BaldEagle

Ok…perhaps I should have clarified but I didn’t realize that by saying I was “lurking” anyone would assume that I have no knowledge or horse sense, experience or talent…I meant lurking on this topic. I imagine there are others who fall into the same lurking category.

I too work with OTTBs, am certified by the British Horse Society and have a filly of my own (bought through CANTER connections)who has taken extensive time and work to begin to uncover her true talent. So I am not talking out of my butt here.

I was calling Heather and you out on what Heather said…“So while he’s a good horse, any horse in the killer pens is there for a reason, either physical or mental. Now, that doesn’t make them unworthy of assistance, and often only a minimum of effort can fix whatever the issue is. But, sound, sane, easy, young horses do not end up in the kill pens. Fancy horses with screws loose do, nice horses with soundness issues do. Old horses do. Again, I’m not saying it’s OK, or that there isn’t value to be found in these horses. But let’s be honest about what’s there and why.” And then you agreed with that statement – so to me that does say that you felt 100% of horses in the pen are troubled somehow and my point was just that almost all horses have issues and all of the horses in the pen are there because the owner made a financial or personal choice to let them get there.

I am actually not judging those people. You can’t know why a person can’t continue their responsibility to an animal. There are all sorts of reasons good and/or bad – But THAT is the “honest” reason as to “what horses are there and why”

I do agree that the average person should not go to an auction or pen expecting to get a beginner safe 1st horse prospect. No one was ever saying that. Just as many horses sold through private sales are sold to people who have no business owning a horse – but none of that was really the issue here.

Great - fine - question the rescues, keep them accountable, etc., etc., but you will be challenged on your responses too here in the spirit of what a message board is about and I DO think you have made some gross generalizations here.

Laurierace has now clarified what the resuce is (NFP). I hope the money can be used for more rescues or to rehab a horse or two in need of medical treatment or help provide more awareness or education.

There are always going to be rules and there will always be good reasons for the rule makers to break the rules for a good cause, and I still think this falls in that catgory.

If you don’t like it - go start your own rescue and run it however you want - or don’t bother posting once you’ve gotten the answers you were asking questions on.

Edited to say: Ok - I won’t erase that last stuff because I did mean it – But there is an equally strong and valid point for holding rescues who say 100% no breeding ever to that policy. It IS a valid argument and I’ll beinterestedin seeing how this rescue continues to answer for themselves in what I am sure will be a barrage of questionings similar to those brought up in this thread.

[Toadie_s_mom]

Ok, I have a thick skin and I did figure I’d be attacked for expressing my feelings. Unfortunately those feelings came from very unpleasant experiences. I’ve posted on the breeding forum about my mare that came home from a breeding farm with a rectal tear. Another one came home dangerously underweight. 2 different farms…1200 miles apart. No, I don’t have 6figure, black type mares, but they are conformationally correct, both winners (albeit cheap races) and both proven producers of warmblood crosses. I have the room and the ability to retrain my own horses, so I wasn’t breeding to sell. I’ve shown breed shows and eventing and yes, there are bad apples everywhere, but these were the worst I’ve encountered.

Las Olas… you’re fortunate to live in the best possible TB “neighborhood” and I know there are some good people at the farms. I’m still entitled to my opinion on a public forum. Like I said, I still love racing and will remain a fan, I just don’t think I’ll contribute to the business part of it again. And as small as my contribution was, and would be in the future, no one will miss me! LOL I’m still coming to the Keeneland sale, are you mad at me???

Epitome… My oldest TB homebred is a yearling, so there hasn’t been any kind of reception. I don’t begrudge anyone a profit in business, whether it’s horses, or toilet paper. I just expect to be treated with the same respect I show as a customer. I’ve bought quite a few OTTB,s to retrain. I called farms where 2 of them were raised to let them know how they were doing and also to tell them I’d be interested in buying others should they retire any that were similar. Maybe it’s just my bad luck, but I was met with total disinterest. I’m not naming names and I’m certainly not influential enough to stop anyone else from contributing to the TB industry. Like I said abv. This is a public forum and we’re all entitled to voice our opinions. Believe me, I wish my opinions weren’t based on personal experience.Truce

[Epitome]

Personally, I think that all of your “horse rescue” types are stuck on your own issues. I am thrilled that Media Empire was rescued. If you read my posts, I rescue plenty of horses myself.
But I am appalled that this rescue would consider breeding this stallion, especially when they have a strict no-breeding policy at their rescue.

This stallion is not really breeding material, and likely isn’t even sound enough to breed. But let those $$$ get in the rescue’s eyes, and all of their good works go out the window. They have gone from rescuing a nice animal from the kill pen straight to trying to breed more mediocre stock that will stand a good chance of winding up there themselves. Either they don’t believe in breeding rescued animals, or they do. They just look really bad when they say that no one else can breed any of their rescues, but by golly, they are going to start themsleves.

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaOat:
SANDBAR: “I will not feel guilty for this, as why should I take on someone else’s throwaway for my personal riding horse, especially one that is not bred to do what I want to do?”

No one is telling you to. But you are naive to think some stallion found at the kill-pens should be bred because he is the son of Danzig out of a stakes producing mare ESPECIALLY if he’s found by a rescue group. They, above all others should know better. They should know the message they send in standing him.
Everyone has a reason to breed one thing or another and everyone has a good explaination of why. With so many smart people you’d think we would have a surplus of buyers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One question and I’m not saying I agree or diagree with breeding him, why should he not be bred? Is this not a prime example of what people should look for in a sire? Good, historically quality producing bloodlines? The lack of a performance career is one strike against him, but if his conditions will not be passed on, why shouldn’t he be given a chance?

Sorry, can’t resist playing devil’s advocate here?

[Albion]

free, I’m sure there are PLENTY of papered AQHA horses - that are perfectly nice for some cause - that wind up at slaughter.

And if you want to see egregious mistakes being made, let’s look at the AQHA halter horse, shall we? While the racing industry in the US may be geared towards precocious speed these days & not really give a damn about long-term soundness, at least they’re not breeding horses that are so grotesquely deformed from BIRTH that they have NO possibility of having any sort of useful under saddle career.

And what nasty disease (I’m NOT talking conformational defect) has the Jockey Club encouraged to be spread around the breed, because it produces a body type that’s ‘suitable’ for the halter classes that have turned into a freak show? I can’t think of anything, but HYPP springs to mind with the QHs.

[gobabygo]

i have never posted here, but i saw a link on final turn about this horse. i was at the frankel barn the beginning of june, and took a picture of two of his horses outside getting baths. one of them i believe was burning sun. the pictures shown here of media empire, they didn’t show his face front on. but if he has a blaze like burning sun, then they could be twins! i don’t know how to post pictures here, so any help is appreciated! please keep everyone posted about this horse. had i been there and been in a better financial situation, i’d have grabbed him as well. at least he was saved.

[Jessi_P]

Smarty Jones parents average? Did you know that his sire, Elusive Quality has the world record for a mile as well as being a graded stakes winner? His dam I’ll Get Along is a multiple stakes winner and was on the board (1st 2nd or 3rd) 30 of her 39 lifetime races (granted she ONLY earned 277k)… wish I had a barnful of average ones like these 2.

1992 I’LL GET ALONG,f,Smile 5 39 12 10 8 277,008 ( 99) 4.84
North America 2 YO Record * 1 1 0 0 8,100 ( 86)
North America Turf Record 1 0 0 0 200 ( 68)
North America Dirt Sprints 29 9 7 5 174,389 ( 99)
North America Dirt Routes 9 3 3 3 102,420 ( 95)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 600 ( 73)
DP = 13-5-8-2-2 DI = 2.75 CD = 0.83 AWD = 6.57
At 3 Won William Parker S. (O) (35,000), 2nd Contrary Rose S. (O)
(36,750), Office Queen S. (O) (31,675), 3rd Moonlight Jig S. ® (O)
(32,700)
At 4 Won Alma North Handicap (O) (32,130)
At 5 3rd Light Hearted S. (O) (42,800)
At 6 2nd Veiled Look S. (O) (43,800), George F Hammerscmidt Mem. Hcp ®
(O) (42,300), 3rd Princess Rooney S. -L (62,000)
-------------------------
1993 ELUSIVE QUALITY,c,Gone West 3 20 9 3 2 413,284 (115) 11.49
North America Turf Record * 4 2 0 0 147,990 (105)
North America Dirt Sprints 12 5 2 2 217,694 (115)
North America Dirt Routes 4 2 1 0 47,600 (103)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 2 0 0 63,500 (107)
DP = 11-8-14-1-0 DI = 3.25 CD = 0.85 AWD = 7.17
At 3 2nd King’s Bishop S. -G2 (108,200)
At 4 3rd Tom Fool Handicap -G2 (150,000)
At 5 Won Jaipur Handicap -G3 (86,250), Poker S. -G3 (85,400)

[Toadie_s_mom]

Laurierace… A big pat on the back to you and the rescue organization you work for! I must say though, I’m not a bit surprised at any story I hear of the plight of a TB. I have 4 retirees and 2 yrs. ago I decided I’d try to breed my own to race. Well boy did I get a rude awakening. I’ve come across greed, mismanagement and have been treated with total disrepect. It is truly an “industry” and how anyone could be so naive to think that any big breeding farm could give a rat’s a** about any horse they sell is beyond me. Oh, I take that back. They certainly do care what happens to the ones that make a lot of money on the track. As long as it’s something they could sell a relative of, or possibly get back to breed for an outrageous stud fee.
I still love the races, but I’m seriously rethinking my involvement.

[SeaOat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:
IMO, it’s not me who doesn’t see the forest for the trees. If a rescue can put a horse or dog in a place where they will be bred responsibly and that allows them to get other animals out of situations where they are not being cared for/bred responsibly then I really don’t see a problem. … <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blind as a bat. I suppose you think Juddmont and the spiraling staircase of owners he went down, were just irresponsible breeders. Look at his beginning. Look at where he ended up & the road that took him there. Twas no accident .

[SeaOat]

SANDBAR: “I will not feel guilty for this, as why should I take on someone else’s throwaway for my personal riding horse, especially one that is not bred to do what I want to do?”

No one is telling you to. But you are naive to think some stallion found at the kill-pens should be bred because he is the son of Danzig out of a stakes producing mare ESPECIALLY if he’s found by a rescue group. They, above all others should know better. They should know the message they send in standing him.
Everyone has a reason to breed one thing or another and everyone has a good explaination of why. With so many smart people you’d think we would have a surplus of buyers.