It never ceases to amaze me what people will throw away. Today the rescue that I volunteer for bought a 3 yr old colt out of the kill pen at New Holland for $175. We normally don’t buy studs, but this one was just so spectacular that we couldn’t pass him up. She calls me and asks me to look up his name and find out what his pedigree was and if he has a race record etc. We like to contact past owners just to let them know what happened to their horses.
Anyway, I almost fall over when I see the sire was Danzig and the dam produced a stakes winner of almost $500k in Nebraska Tornado. There doesn’t appear to be anything wrong with him either other than he needs to be singing soprano to be in our program. Will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Las Olas:
Maybe that’s why they make money and I only get a tax write-off every year! Good thing I have a day job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope it will never happen, but if you have a “rainy day” in your life, you are going to regret it. 
SeaOat…everyone that I know personally does euthanize when a horse reaches the point where it is suffering. Unfortunately this is not the norm among the racing industry. I fully agree with you. The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsiple breeding should be stopped in its track.
There are some good Tb people left. I got my horse from Bill Boniface, and I also worked for him for years. He always went above and beyond to find good homes for horses that were not going to make it as race horses. As fate would have it, the old owner of my horse now has horses with Mr. Flash’s current boss. He was delighted to hear that the horse he let me have for a song is doing well and happy.
Honestly, I don’t get it. This downward spiral happens to horses constantly. Usually older campaigners. Would it happen less if there were less horses? I seriously doubt it.
Yes, it was irresponsible breeders that took this horse to the auction where he was sold to the meat man. Not Juddmonte (the responsible type), but the last owner. He or she decided the horse wasn’t what they wanted and, instead of either: 1) putting the effort into finding a purchaser or 2) putting the horse down, they decided to send him to a low level auction.
There clearly is a buyer for this horse, assuming we’ve been correctly informed about the offer made to the rescue. The owner just didn’t want to find them.
I’m going to say it again, for emphasis:
The issue is really responsibility and education. You can’t legislate either of those any more than you can honestly stop irresponsibility or stupidity. If you think keeping this horse from being bred or even all the horses that are “rescued” you are going to fix the problem, dream on. At least if a rescue supports the breeding of quality individuals in a responsible home, perhaps they’ve at least kept quality individuals available, that are less likely to end up (at least in the case of horses, small animal owners are even harder to understand)at the slaughter house.
I’ll even add that they have, in the meantime, been able to hopefully re-hab others that need homes. I suspect that it is an unusual case where this situation arises.
With regard to this particular animal, I have already acknowledged that Epitome is probably right about the quality of his breeding and whether this particular horse’s gelding would be a loss to the racing community.
I might even go so far as to say that if this horse should not be bred and cannot be ridden, it might be in the overall best interest of the rescue and other needy horses to put him down. 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toadie’s mom:
I have 4 retirees and 2 yrs. ago I decided I’d try to breed my own to race. Well boy did I get a rude awakening. I’ve come across greed, mismanagement and have been treated with total disrepect. It is truly an “industry” and how anyone could be so naive to think that any big breeding farm could give a rat’s a** about any horse they sell is beyond me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience in the racing industry. It sounds as though you are very bitter because your homebred didn’t exactly get the reception in the racing world that you expected. But to be perfectly honest, it IS an industry, and not a hobby, as breeding a racehorse obviously was for you.
Those of us in the horse business actually have to make a living at it, and that involves selling our stock, and occasionally cutting our losses. I don’t agree with sending a horse to slaughter, but to expect that anybody would or could be responsible for everything that they have ever sold is ridiculous. It is a business just like any other. It would be wonderful if it were possible, but it isn’t. Do regular horse people buy back every horse that they have ever had? I see ads all the time trying to give away 20 year old and older “schoolmasters”, or “companion horses” to a good home. Usually the ad also mentions that the owner is going off to school, or has a younger horse and cannot keep both. It is a sad reality in all facets of the horse world.
One thing that does amaze me about this business is how many people decide to breed a racehorse of their own, without any real knowledge of racing itself, and then complain because nobody takes them or their stock seriously. They blame everybody else, but never even consider that maybe it is their own ignorance that is the problem. Few people would buy a restaurant to run who didn’t even know how to cook, but massive numbers of people decide to breed and race just because they have owned a horse at one time or another. Then they cannot understand why nobody is falling down to buy or train their stock on a percentage, since few of these amature breeders actually have the funds to pay a trainer to get the horse to the races. I’m not saying that this is the case with you, since I have no idea who you are or anything about you, but based on your comment about owning retirees and deciding to breed, it sounds as though it could possibly be the case. If not, then I stand corrected.
Most thoroughbred breeders try as best as they can to provide for their horses throughout their life. Most major farms make huge contributions to horse rescues throughbout the country, and most will give away their unwanted stock to good homes when needed. I myself have a standing offer to take back any horse that I have ever bred or sold when that horse leaves the track. But we are in business to make money, and I don’t see a problem with trying to realize a profit for our hard work. If you have a job, I doubt that you are willing to work 40 hours a week for free, and if not, I daresay your husband feels the same. Why should profit be a dirty word only when connected with the racing industry, and not anywhere else?
[QUOTEThere’s just one flaw with that reasoning, Bea. A lot of top horses offspring don’t ever get a performance record, that we can see, due to their purchase by non-show types and those that have no desire or ability to make it to those levels. I’m sure there are a lot of horses doing local shows and leading happy lives, that just don’t make it to an NRHA approved show. it is not necessarily due to lack of talent on the horse’s part. There’s also a monetary issue to showing and the mares portion of the equation to consider.[/QUOTE]
Yes SH, you’re right that is one of the wildcards. But if you’re comparing studs who have been breeding for a while and whose stud fees are reasonably high, you can make some assumptions that the attrition rate through death, injury, non showing etc for their offspring is approx the same.
And since reining is so small, you can see on paper often how the numbers are affected. Bob Loomis has a fantastic marketing and training component therefore Topsail Whiz offspring probably have some greater opportunities. And if the goal is to breed reiners, an offspring having a great career in say dressage, doesn’t matter. There’s a big buzz around Lil Ruf Peppy offspring and his performance offspring percentage is lower than others. But when you look at the broodmares being bred to him, you see most people so far are taking a chance on him with their second string. That’s possibly part of the buzz, people wondering what he could do with great mares. But who’s going to step up and take that chance. Well, since Tom McCutcheon co-owes him and wants to build a business around him, he will. And has the ability to do so.
I would think it’s a very similar situation to breeding TBs for racing. And would imagine good TB breeders make decisions based on similar considerations. If you’ve got a great mare, you’re not going to breed her to an unproven, unraced stud. And therefore that unproven, unraced stud is getting to get unproven mares. Is Roxe Dene getting to be bred to this colt?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
Besides for $225-- this is cheap publicity focusing on the fact that GOOD horses do go to killer buyers. You can bet that there will be many buyers at the next auction and some of them will take home horses they would not have otherwise purchased. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Finally somebody is getting really close to what I was willing to say about what I think this whole affair is, and didn’t, because I am not 100% sure and don’t have the time and the will to check everywhere. 
If I was proved correct in my assessment of this affair I don’t know what I could do or say. Better leave things as they are, at least for now.
You must be a very bright woman
No “LCR” GOOD horses don’t end up in auctions. Only those that their market value alive are below their market value dead, end up where this one is supposed to have been found.
BTW I just hate PitBulls. If it would depend on me that breed would only exist in dip frozen DNA form. 
I never act by instinct. Always trying to use the brains to control all kinds of resoning and emotions 
Allowing one’s heart to control something is too dangerous.
I just read about this in tb times. Congrats! Sounds like you got a good one!
I would love to see pictures. 
I also have that pet peeve that most people who know I have TBS and have one themselves say “He/she has [insert famous name here: Man O War, Secretariat, Northern Dancer etc.] is his/she bloodlines…” You hear it all the time on the various bulletin boards too. That’s great, but most have some famous sire way back - who are their sire and dam? What are you going to use them for? What is the conformation like? I agree that certain TB lines seem to do well as hunter sires and some as eventers, but most of these folks are not talking about that or about performance horses - they are talking about their backyard OTTBs. It’s great when people know those venerable old names and take pride in their horses, but when they want to use that as a basis to breed, I find it sad…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
So while he’s a good horse, any horse in the killer pens is there for a reason, either physical or mental. Now, that doesn’t make them unworthy of assistance, and often only a minimum of effort can fix whatever the issue is. But, sound, sane, easy, young horses do not end up in the kill pens. Fancy horses with screws loose do, nice horses with soundness issues do. Old horses do. Again, I’m not saying it’s OK, or that there isn’t value to be found in these horses. But let’s be honest about what’s there and why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
WOW I was starting to think that “I” have a “loose screw” because it seemed to be the only one seing the things as they really are.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you and praise those that go there to see what can be done to save a few and try to find the eventual “hidden” value to be found in these horses as you say…
But as I said before really “good horses” don’t end in up auctions of that kind.
Those that want some “legislation” we have been talking about recently are the ones interested in spreeding this false notion for political reasons…
SeaOat…well in all fairness to Secretariat, I have also heard that the ability of his foals did not drop when he was bred to lesser quality mares…so if that is true, it was in good measure due to him.
Aha…I hadn’t thought of the fact that 99% of the time only average mares would be coming to him. But what about Smarty Jones? Weren’t his parents just average? I understand that he is an exception, however don’t they need average horses to keep the tracks going? Although with only one in every two foals only fair to poor compared to their ancestors even among the top breeders, I suppose that there is enough to fill each calender. But it breaks my heart to know that most race breeders are not breeding for long-term soundness and distance any more. It is increasingly difficult to find a horse among the racers that can make it as a *** or **** star Event horse now. Most of our top riders are importing now and I hate to see that happening. I love and want to remain proud of the U.S. Thoroughbred. We should be able to breed just as good or better an Eventing horse over here!
O.K. He was the greatest!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
UNFORTUNATELY “GOOD HORSES” end up at auctions all the time! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
There are numerous ‘good’ horses that HAVE been found at the cheap auctions and gone on to highly successful careers in other venues and even return in their own. I know of one Saddlebred that was bought off a “killer” truck and went back to showing at the top levels. No one knows how he fell through the cracks. What about the famous jumper named Snowman? Others successful horses narrowly missed getting ON the truck Rattle and Hum is one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For everything in life there are some exceptions that just confirms the rules. It’s not what happens to one or two horses in tens of thousands that can be used to change anything of what I said.
When free says “no one knows how he fell through the cracks” she is implicitly admitting this. Normally they don’t fell through cracks but they are victim of their “market value". At a certain point, regardless of the reason, nobody wanted to buy a certain horse for more then the value of its meat and the horse end up in what you call “a killer auction” which I also take as an unfair assumption because the auction has nothing to do with the intentions of the buyers that can be many different ones. People also unffairly treat those auctions for reasons that are well known.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
He was lame and the owners did not want to put any time in him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At a certain point the owner of this horse decided “not to put any time in him” as you say. Eventually tried to sell it and found no buyers probably for the very same reason, and send it to an auction. Again LCR, maybe unwillingly, is confirming what I said. At the time of the decision made by its owner, its market value alive was zero and was sent to an auction to be sold for whatever price someone is willing to pay for it.
If the person that bought it at the auction had stepped in earlier may be it might had not ended down there.
That’s why I have the uttermost respect and appreciation for what CANTER as well as some horsy Forums does. Advertising the available horses in very attractive (and addictive) web sites and volunteering in the tracks not only to take pictures for the website but also to help prospective buyers find what they want and try to place as many horses as possible before a drastic decision is made.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
BaldEagle…I have some questions regarding your post;
1.what you were willing to say, but DIDN’T???
2.then innuendos (that aren’t clear)?
3.GOOD horses don’t end up in auctions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are being too curious. If I didn’t want to say it for the very reasons stated in my post, its not because you asked that I am going to change my position. And my posts are always very clear for those that want to read its exact content without undue inferences or illations.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
So if LCR prompts people to look at these auctions…that’s wonderful" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are misquoting me and again interpreting in a wrong way. I have nothing against going to look at these auctions. I find it wonderful myself too.
Try to read my post again.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
You obviously haven’t looked into this specific issue, nor rescue in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You might be wrong. One doesn’t need to be an “expert” in this area to see a ting or two that are “non compliant” with one’s way of thinking.
Some do nothing, others do very little. From those that do a lot, almost all use prices and terms of doing it that, in my point of view, are absolutely unacceptable. I consider their “contracts” just pure abuse. To adopt an animal, these “rescues” impose a contract that is more stringent then those used to adopt a human being, and you already know from many of my previous posts that I NEVER put an animal ahead of a human being, regardless of the type of animal or the reasons behind those procedures. They impose conditions to those that put up the money and foot the bill to maintain the horse alive that they are willing to forget as soon as their own material interests arises. They keep the money AND the merchandise. They… well… you will never see me signing one of those contracts.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Do you think he was really in a cushy stall somewhere and we starved him and made up a pack of lies about who had him and how he got in that condition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is your own illation, not mine.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Between all the rescues that I volunteer for we adopt about 300 horses per year. If you asked those adopters if their horses were worth killer price, they would laugh at you. We have had horses go on to compete at the highest levels of many disciplines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You completely fail to grasp my point. Reviewing, even superficially, Einstein’s “Theory of Relativity” would help you on that.
Even in some of the examples given in the posts above, it is absolutely clear that, at the time that the decision to send a horse to auction was made they were NOT “good” horses at all for one reason or another. Please try to understand this. One was said to be even LAME.
What those that bought the horses cited above did with their intervention was to change those conditions by heavily investing in the horse, time, money, training, health care, whatever that TURNED those unwanted, BAD horses into good ones.
To help you grasp what I mean with this, I ask you a question. Give me (more then one) example of a horse that went STRAIGHT from an auction to the show ring or to the stardom of the show jumping. And I mean straight, directly, immediately without any further investment in training, rest, TLC anything… Got it now ?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Usually when people start spewing filth such as you have, they are doing it just to ease their conscience for their involvement with the problem. Congratulations, I hope you sleep well with your rationalizations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since you didn’t grasp at all what I meant with my post, its obvious that your illations and inferences are dead wrong. There is no filth anywhere and I am not at all involved with the problem.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
…as well as being loyal members of the family.
Congratulations, I hope you sleep well with your rationalizations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s another very big difference between us. I don’t have family members with hoofs. They all have feet…
In fact I am not sleeping well in the last couple of years or so but that is for other reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with horsy stuff.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldEagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
Besides for $225-- this is cheap publicity focusing on the fact that GOOD horses do go to killer buyers. You can bet that there will be many buyers at the next auction and some of them will take home horses they would not have otherwise purchased. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Finally somebody is getting really close to what I was willing to say about what I think this whole affair is, and didn’t, because I am not 100% sure and don’t have the time and the will to check everywhere.
If I was proved correct in my assessment of this affair I don’t know what I could do or say. Better leave things as they are, at least for now.
You must be a very bright woman
No “LCR” GOOD horses don’t end up in auctions. Only those that their market value alive are below their market value dead, end up where this one is supposed to have been found.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You really should be ashamed of yourself for saying what you have said. You obviously haven’t looked into this specific issue, nor rescue in general. I haven’t got a clue what you are alluding to when you talk about where this horse was supposed to be found. Do you think he was really in a cushy stall somewhere and we starved him and made up a pack of lies about who had him and how he got in that condition? Besides being criminal, that would be borderline insane, and I find your suggestion reprehensible.
Between all the rescues that I volunteer for we adopt about 300 horses per year. If you asked those adopters if their horses were worth killer price, they would laugh at you. We have had horses go on to compete at the highest levels of many disciplines as well as being loyal memebers of the family.
Usually when people start spewing filth such as you have, they are doing it just to ease their conscience for their involvement with the problem. Congratulations, I hope you sleep well with your rationalizations.
Here’s the colt’s story, with another nice picture, from the TB Times site:
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=47193&subsec=1
If your colt is Media Empire, out of Media Nox, according to the information on the Pedigreequery board, he’s also a full brother to grade 2 stakes winner, Burning Sun.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:
One question and I’m not saying I agree or diagree with breeding him, why should he not be bred? Is this not a prime example of what people should look for in a sire? Good, historically quality producing bloodlines? The lack of a performance career is one strike against him, but if his conditions will not be passed on, why shouldn’t he be given a chance?
Sorry, can’t resist playing devil’s advocate here? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When you say that Media Empire has historically producing bloodlines , you’re falling into the same trap that most non racing people do when they look at a pedigree. Danzig himself comes from a good bloodline, but he isn’t the only, or even the most important part of the equation. The dam side is what you look at more, and Media Empire’s dam is not exactly a blue blood. She is from a pretty average family, if you want to be brutally honest about it.
Why shouldn’t Media Empire be considered stallion material? His dam, Media Nox is by Lycius, not exactly known as a great broodmare sire, or a great sire of any kind, for that matter. She is a decent winner of less than $100,000 at the races, and has no siblings of much note, none of whom were great producers. Out of 5 foals , she has produced 2 runners, both of whom are European, only one of which looks to be a stand out at this time. Media Empire himself never raced, so no points there. He is by Danzig, but gee, Danzig sired probably over 80 foals a year for how many years? That leaves lots of other little Danzigs to choose from, many of whom are far better bred and were far more successful at the races.
Altogether, this is a semi-decent regional pedigree, but is probably all grass, which means he’ll go down the tubes so fast in this country, you’ll hear the sucking sound from wherever you’re at when his foals start running. He’s bred no better, and probably a bit worse than a thousand cheap sires already standing at stud, none of whom really should be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It comes down to market (see my post on education and responsibility). Perhaps he’s not the best potential race horse sire in the world. Perhaps he is a nice possibility for another discipline? I don’t really know, I’m not an expert in pedigrees for racing or dressage or eventing. Ask me about reiners, then maybe I’ll have an opinion.
My point is just that, if there is a market for him, which based on the $25K offer, someone thinks there is and the rescue feels that this is a responsible type of breeder, then I don’t see a problem with it. I have to confess, I did think that he had better breeding than your indicating and maybe that does change the argument somewhat.
Sandbarhorse, I am going to play devil’s advocate.
There have been no reports saying that this has not been caused by something that is not inheritable. I have read terms such as: undisclosed, bad back, wobbles, “not neurological”, sticky hock, popped abcess, pinched nerve.
Personally, I think this makes a good argument for live cover in breeding as opposed to AI. This is a colt, not a 20 yr old raced tb with arthritis from his career. Does this mean that a similar colt in AI would have slipped through the cracks in creating a sport horse?
No one has come out and said that none of the above was caused by a pasture accident versus a conformation flaw, ocd etc. If you were buying the horse to do a job, for riding, jumping, sport etc. how would you feel about those reports? Would you buy him?
Danzig has sired close to a thousand registered tb’s with 100 sired in the last 4 years. I do not know much about tb breeding trends. Is this low, high, or the norm?
free, and others.
In my job, which I won’t disclose on the BB, but if you want to PT me, I will share with you, I get a lot of emails from the “average horse owner” from every discipline you can imagine seeking help or advice for problems with their horses.
On a daily basis I am well and truly horrified by the emails I recieve. People with no business owning a guinea pig writing to me about their horse problems. Just a sampling of this week’s mail includes someone who wants to know if I think it’s alright for them to use a piece of barbed wire to make a bit for their OTTB who “won’t turn good,” a woman who bought a pony for their child at a killer auction who has now been attacked multiple times by the pony, and whose duaghter has had their arm broken, and someone who bought a racing QH (as in less than a week off the track) for their 78 year old grandmother to trail ride on and did I think it was a good idea to give the horse some time off or anything before setting grandma loose in the wilds.
Evertyime I think I’ve seen it all, I get something worse in the in-box. So honestly, my faith in the average horse buying public’s ability to use good judgement is absolutely zero. I know I’m rather jaded and cynical by the job I do, and that I may be seeing the smallest, and worst percentage of horse buyers, but if I get one more letter from someone who is (a) adopting a resuce and has never owned a horse before and wants to know when it can show, or (b) has never ridden, and is buying a yearling, and wants to know how soon they can try riding it, I’m going to eat my hat.
And it goes without saying that when I suggest that these people employ professional help I get one of the following responses:
“I can’t afoord a trainer or lessons.”
“My [insert name of family member here] had horses as a kid and is going to help train 'em over the phone.”
“I’ve had horses for 50 years and never needed any help before” (this is usually after I’ve been asked some totally inane question like do horses really need hay in the winter).
So my generalized thoughts on the issue of whether or not “good” (hate that word) horses end up in dire straights are certainly temepered by the fact that while I think slaughter is a pretty bad way to go, I’m not sure it’s a less desirable that a home where the horse gets poor nutrition, inadequate care, has a mouth torn to bits by some terrifying bit contraption, and is covered with wounds from being hobbled since it doesn’t want to be caught.
Nothing in horses is an always or never situation. I know that. However, i do firmly believe that a statistical majority of horses that end up there have somekind of problem that will need to be resolved, and that in my expereince dealing daily with the great unwashed of the horse world, most people do not have the ability to deal with them. Again, that doens’t mean we shrug and turn our backs and say oh well. But, I do think it would be irresponsible, TO THE HORSES, to suggest that average horse people should be bringing horses home from the kill pens en masse.
It’s been said before, but keep in mind that this BB has a far higher percentage of committed and expereinced horse folk than exists on average. I think it’s easy to think the horse world is populated by folks like you find here. It’s not. Believe me. It’s not.
