@Simkie When vet is on property, aware, and agrees, there is no offense. Some horses are dangerous in certain situations. I no longer have this mare, but it was definitely an obstacle. Ace can also be given orally, but not sure I’d use that for farrier visit.
I’m dubious that you’re correct. Unless the farrier is a vet tech, acting under the immediate direction of the vet, that’s still well outside the scope of practice for a farrier. OWNERS giving injections to their own horses, at the direction of the vet? Sure. A third party? Nope, that’s considered acting without a license.
Regardless, nearly no farriers out there are working with a vet on the premises who is aware of the situation so it applies almost never even if correct.
4 Likes
You are so delightful to doubt what I am stating that is fact. Think what you’d like. When a boarding barn has 35+ horses, vets and farriers are often on site at the same time, particularly for a horse who is dangerous having feet worked on.
1 Like
I thought that recently, there was a law change and now vets had to be present and administer sedation themselves? It was a big issue here, for several specialty farriers and also chiropractors, who did dispense sedation and the law change was troublesome for them. I think it is USA wide, not state to state.
2 Likes
Shrug. What you’re suggesting is dangerous and illegal. If you’d like to insist it’s not, show us the law that permits it.
I’ve dealt with more than my fair share of vets, and I can’t think of a single one that would be okay with what you described. Same goes with farriers. It’s terribly risky, really for both parties.
Here’s an article about how they’re cracking down on this stuff. A FELONY in Oklahoma, yikes.
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/state-boards-wage-war-lay-persons-practicing-veterinary-medicine
4 Likes
My business model for years was working with tough horses, rehab etc. I have a lot of experience using Ace. As a rule I have NEVER found horses to be unpredictable when given Ace as the rule not the exception. If is called a non reactive sedative for a reason.
This I am told varies from state to state.
The states I have worked in it is SOP for the barn manager to give injections. IM of IV. My owners agree to this on the boarding contract. Plus it saves them a ton of money. I have a lot working relationship with a number of top vets in my area. They know me and my skills. I call them if I need Ace, Dorm, Banamine/Flunixin any number of “non secluded” medications and it is ready for pick up at their office. A 50cc bottle of Ace costs $18-20+. The syringe cost more then the dose in it. In total about 15-20 cents per injection for the average horse. A vet has to charge around $25-$35± plus the farm charge. If one of my vets is at the farm checking on a horse and it needs some Ace-Dorm-Banamine etc. They ask me if I have any, use out of my stock and not be charged the markup. I may give it or hand the syringe to them. If there are other horses that need a dose. I’ll give while they are working with the first horse.
This has been SOP in every professional barn I have ever been in. I expect it to be especially if I am send a horse there.
I have worked with lots of top farriers to top barns.The carried meds if the owner didn’t have any on hand. Giving these types of meds doesn’t require a medical degree. It’s called being the complete horsemen. No snark intended.
3 Likes
As some others have said ask your farrier. As I said in my above comment the farriers I have with over the years know what they like, know what should be the correct dosage for the horse. Most usually carry what they need with them in case the owner doesn’t have any. They always ask if it is OK to give. If the owner says no and the horse is being a real PITA. Good chance the farrier will leave. I don’t blame them.
As to Ace or Dorm. We always give either IM or IV for quicker results. Dorm is faster acting, shorter widow of effect and can make a horse a bit wobbly. It is also a reactive sedative. Ace takes longer to kick in, not quite as strong when given a normal does. Both can be given safely in larger dosage. Dorm last longer in a larger dose.
We may give either on its own. Or mix a cocktail. The Ace prolongs the effect. Depends on needs and the horse. This should be discussed with your vet.
IMO every horse owner should know the correct dosage of either for their horse before it is needed. Do a “test run”. It’s never a question of if, only when a situation will happen and the horse may need to be sedated asap.
I have found Ace pills can be tricky to judge the dosage and the time delay before it kicks in. Oral also. The same with Dorm gel.
OP has a horse she only recently bailed out of a homeless situation several states away with a sketchy to non exsistant backstory and questionable handling skills. Assuming it’s this new horse, not the one she got semi feral that she’s had for three years or so and has worked hard to install good ground manners in,
Sometimes you have to choose between not tending to sore and abscessed feet on a horse you didn’t start and haven’t had long screwed up and possibly abused by somebody else or using one time chemical help to treat the feet and not get anybody stressed out or hurt. Horse won’t forget what it’s learned, get more scared or lose what confidence it’s built since arriving. Bad foot manners can be harder and take longer to school out, especially if the feet hurt. Heck even a well trained horse can get touchy about having sore feet handled.
Use the dorm gel. Easiest, I think, in this situation. I never had any issues with Ace in any barn I was in but it’s not as effective IM or orally. the dorm gel probably isn’t as effective either but it’s pretty easy to administer if you are at home and can time it to be in full effect when the farrier starts. And with a smaller horse you got a better chance of staying on target… might want to give some Bute the night before too for discomfort both during and after the work.
4 Likes
@gumtree unfortunately “because everyone does it” isn’t much of a defense if some ADA decides to make an example out of you. Check that article I linked–good overview.
4 Likes
I’m guessing you’ve never worked in a large barn. I’ve given injections to 100’s of horse with vet and owner permission. BTW, we checked this with our vets and with our insurance company etc and yes it was perfectly legal.
3 Likes
https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/scope-unauthorized-practice.aspx
Status of all states with regard to illegal veterinary practice.
It ranges, from citations to fines to various classes of misdemeanor to various classes of felony.
Yes, this is done all over the place. No, most people are not going to be called out on it because boarders want their trainers or BOs or BMs or farriers or dentists to sedate their horses so they don’t have to (don’t know how, don’t want to, can’t be there, whatever). That doesn’t make it legal.
And it opens up every one of those BOs/BMs/trainers/farriers/dentists for a world of hurt if someone decides to take action.
And yes, this applies to DVMs who have not renewed their license.
Owners are not in these groups.
3 Likes
*As long as they’re acting on their own horses.
1 Like
I am very familiar with this. The majority of which I think is nonsense, over regulation, money grabbing bureaucrats that want to impose and collect license fees.
Further and I have discussed this with my Vets. There is a segment of the licensed vet community that feels they are not getting their just rewards for going to and paying for vet school. They have been lobbying for stricter control over and protecting their turf. It is absurd to force someone to take the time and the huge cost of going to Vet school if they only want to practice acupuncture. If I someone can find a link to a horse being harmed, let alone killed by an unlicensed person performing acupuncture. I would be very interested in reading it.
The same for someone performing Chiro on a horse. Something I don’t put a lot stock in. I’ve paid a lot of money over the years to come to the conclusion it is not worth writing the check for most things. To each their own on this. Your money your opinion on the value of the results.
I have foaled more mares that the majority of general practitioners will in their lifetime. It is absurd that I and others if we choose and or are asked to help with foalings need to be license and or if not be charged with a crime. The vast majority of TB foalings are done at boarding farms. None of us are licensed nor do we have to be. What is the difference if I foal atclient mares at my farm, a farm I work for? Or at someone’s farm that that will pay me to come to their farm at a fraction of the price of a clinic and or vet will charge. I am talking about straight forward foaling, not performing a C-section or any other surgical procedures.
Depending on the state, midwives do not always have to be licensed. Two states, one I live in and the other I used to live in.
PA; Direct entry midwives are not regulated by the state of PA; there is no license available.
KY; Direct entry midwives are not regulated by the state of Kentucky; there is no license available.
I just clicked on OK; Direct Entry Midwives are not regulated by the State of Oklahoma; there is no license available.
“State Rep. Brian Renegar, D-Okla. authored the bill because horses have died from improper sedation during teeth floating, but says most district attorneys wouldn’t touch the case when it was a misdemeanor”
IMO this guy is a well meaning Butt head. Like most politicians kowtowing to special interest groups.
I would like to know how many horses have died? I think this is stretch brought about by an owner who’s horses was the exception not the norm.I would be very much interest in seeing verifiable statistics.
That being said, It is not rocket science to float teeth. Extraction, esp an infected one is MUCH more specialized. I feel this should be regulated.
“But equine dentistry is just one area of a nationwide issue. Some believe lay persons are pushing the boundary by offering therapeutic massage, reproductive and chiropractic services and acupuncture. Veterinary boards are reacting accordingly”
Other than dentistry. The operative word being “Some Believe”. IMO and those in the profession feel the same, Protecting turf and income stream. These are all noninvasive procedures, therapies. Easily learned and absurd to think the person should have to pay for 7-9 years of vet school to practice.
All that being said. Please point out where it says a vet is not allowed to sell me a bottle of Ace, Dorm or any of the rest I listed. These are not secluded medications. Read the label on a bottle of Ace, Dorm, Xylazine, etc about dispensing and use. It is totally at the digression of the Vet. A responsible vet is not going to sell/give any of these to a client who they have not had a long term relationship with. And respect the skills of that client. Which is what this thread is about.
In Pa I can buy most vaccination for dog, horse, cow, pig at my local Tractor Supply. And the syringes and needles needed. I can buy a 100 count box of syringes and needles at Bartville Tack supply for around $10-$12. Depending on the type and size. These are state licensed businesses.
I have never worked on a horse farm in Connecticut. Nor have I boarded any horses there. So I don’t know the rules and regs in that state. I only talk about what I do know. In my state a vet is not going to be sanctioned, fined for selling me and or allowing me to give these med. The vets and the clinics I work with are some of the best in the world. They would not jeopardize their license.
States that want to regulate this all all the things mentioned about are/will be doing a big disservice capitulating to special interest groups. Owning horses is expensive enough at it is. The desire and more so the financial ability, both of which go hand in hand, is waning. State that want to impose more rules and regs on horse farms, making ownership more expensive are making a huge mistake. It called the rule of diminishing returns.
As always to each their own, No snark intended, I enjoy reading your posts. comments.
4 Likes
As I comment on Simkie’s reply, Please point out, copy and paste where it says what I have been commenting on as being illegal. It is not addressed on this link, ANYWHERE. There is no definition that defines EXACTLY what constitutes “Unauthorized Practice of Veterinarian Medicine” Maybe I missed it somewhere? I know what I am talking about in my state. So do my vets.
For some reason my replay to Simkie is “unapproved”. It better be approved, I spend a lot of time researching my points before posting. Totally forking absurd it is “unapproved”. Mods if my time consuming comment is not approved I would appreciate being told why. If not this will most likely be my LAST post on the forums. I take the time to pass on what I have learned over the years as a service. NOT because I have nothing better to do with my time.
2 Likes
If the vet is onsite why would the farrier be the one giving an IV injection?
4 Likes
:yes: :yes:
PA:
https://www.animallaw.info/statute/pa-veterinary-chapter-14a-veterinary-medicine-practice
Giving these types of meds doesn’t require a medical degree.
No, but it does require following the law, and unless the farriers have permission for X dosage of Y medication for Z horse under ABC situations, then they are not following the law. Same for any “caretakers”.
Just imagine if a farrier whips out his meds to give to the horse and the clueless owner says “sure, go for it!” (or worse, isn’t even there, and the BO says “do what you need”) and the farrier gives too much, or neither of them understand the horse has terrible reactions to that drug. I doubt that happens very often at all, but that’s the point of the laws - making sure a vet who has working knowledge of that horse is in the picture.
For some reason my replay to Simkie is “unapproved”. It better be approved, I spend a lot of time researching my points before posting. Totally forking absurd it is “unapproved”. Mods if my time consuming comment is not approved I would appreciate being told why. If not this will most likely be my LAST post on the forums. I take the time to pass on what I have learned over the years as a service. NOT because I have nothing better to do with my time.
Relax, the mods have nothing to do with it, it’s the software flagging things as spam for weird reasons. It’s happened to me for posts as simple as “Here’s a link I found, I hope this helps”.
https://www.animallaw.info/statute/pa-veterinary-chapter-14a-veterinary-medicine-practice
“(15) “Veterinarian-client-patient relationship” means a relationship satisfying all of the following conditions: (i) the veterinarian has assumed the responsibility for making veterinary medical judgments regarding the health of an animal and the need for veterinary medical treatment, and the client, owner or caretaker of the animal has agreed to follow the instructions of the veterinarian; (ii) the veterinarian has sufficient knowledge of the animal to initiate at least a general, preliminary or tentative diagnosis of the medical condition of the animal; (iii) the veterinarian is acquainted with the keeping and care of the animal by virtue of an examination of the animal or medically appropriate and timely visits to the premises where the animal is kept; (iv) the veterinarian is available for consultation in cases of adverse reactions to or failure of the regimen of therapy; (v) the veterinarian maintains records on the animal examined in accordance with regulations established by the board.”
Farrier Joe carrying dorm in his truck is not legally allowed to give that drug to a horse whose vet does not know and approve of what he’s doing and why.
For some reason my replay to Simkie is “unapproved”. It better be approved, I spend a lot of time researching my points before posting. Totally forking absurd it is “unapproved”. Mods if my time consuming comment is not approved I would appreciate being told why. If not this will most likely be my LAST post on the forums. I take the time to pass on what I have learned over the years as a service. NOT because I have nothing better to do with my time.
Relax, the Mods have nothing to do with it. The software flags things as spam, inappropriately at times. It’s happened to me with something as simple as “here’s a link I found, hope it helps”. You need to send a message to a Mod to check on it so they can get it out of jail.
And, it may have happened to the last reply I made here, which I’m more or less repeating.
I also wonder if the vet is onsite why he would not be the one sedating the horse. I know the state I am in, it is illegal for me to sedate anyone other than my own horse. I also would as a BO and BM touch the liability should something god forbid go wrong. It is not worth the potential liability. Personally I would go with the Dorm Gel to answer the OP’s questions. I think that gives you the best result and takes into account for the best you can do for the safety of others. Please let us know how it goes.
1 Like
https://www.animallaw.info/statute/pa-veterinary-chapter-14a-veterinary-medicine-practice
“(15) “Veterinarian-client-patient relationship” means a relationship satisfying all of the following conditions: (i) the veterinarian has assumed the responsibility for making veterinary medical judgments regarding the health of an animal and the need for veterinary medical treatment, and the client, owner or caretaker of the animal has agreed to follow the instructions of the veterinarian; (ii) the veterinarian has sufficient knowledge of the animal to initiate at least a general, preliminary or tentative diagnosis of the medical condition of the animal; (iii) the veterinarian is acquainted with the keeping and care of the animal by virtue of an examination of the animal or medically appropriate and timely visits to the premises where the animal is kept; (iv) the veterinarian is available for consultation in cases of adverse reactions to or failure of the regimen of therapy; (v) the veterinarian maintains records on the animal examined in accordance with regulations established by the board.”
Farrier Joe carrying dorm in his truck is not legally allowed to give that drug to a horse whose vet does not know and approve of what he’s doing and why.
For some reason my replay to Simkie is “unapproved”. It better be approved, I spend a lot of time researching my points before posting. Totally forking absurd it is “unapproved”. Mods if my time consuming comment is not approved I would appreciate being told why. If not this will most likely be my LAST post on the forums. I take the time to pass on what I have learned over the years as a service. NOT because I have nothing better to do with my time.
Relax, the Mods have nothing to do with it. The software flags things as spam, inappropriately at times. It’s happened to me with something as simple as “here’s a link I found, hope it helps”. You need to send a message to a Mod to check on it so they can get it out of jail.
And, it may have happened to the last reply I made here, which I’m more or less repeating.
