A very interesting discussion!
Two of you mentioned studies showing more (or less) pressure points with the treeless. Would either of you mind pointing me to those studies, so that I can read & learn more? TIA.
What a silly notion, to ban treeless saddles. I think they’re a great option for some horses and riders.
Personally, my mare has had more trouble and gone through more treed saddles than I care to count. Her back was always sore and tight at the end of the season no matter how “good” the saddle fit. (and yes, I had fitters out).
Since switching to treeless saddles and their essential pad counterparts (Ansur Carlton and Sensation G4 Jump) her back muscles have palpated like butter even after long rides! No tension, no ugly faces when being girthed. I actually can ride with a more relaxed girth than I did with the last treed saddle we hunted in.
When combined with the right pad on the right horse with the right rider, treeless saddles are fantastic.
Absolutely absurd to think of banning them.
[QUOTE=philosoraptor;5639268]
A very interesting discussion!
Two of you mentioned studies showing more (or less) pressure points with the treeless. Would either of you mind pointing me to those studies, so that I can read & learn more? TIA.[/QUOTE]
At least one of those studies was done or sponsored by a treed saddle manufacturer…can’t remember which one but consider the source when reading any studies. Also be aware that the padding under a treeless saddle is as important as the saddle itself and people who don’t understand the proper set up may have done the studies. I wouldn’t trust any studies that weren’t at least advised by an expert in treeless saddle fit and that don’t mention which brand and model of treeless saddle they used in their study, and the particular conformation of the horse’s back, which pad they used etc. All play a large part in proper fit. Without those facts the studies are as worthless as the paper they’re written.
[QUOTE=Bells;5638629]
I don’t know who Carrie is - I just ran a google search and her blog was the 3rd option. It was the only thing I saw that indicated a reason.[/QUOTE]
Found this on FB: “ACTHA’s General Mngr. and Co-founder Tom and Carrie Scrima”
But Is There Any Truth About Less Safety/Security in a Treeless?
Is there any truth to the claim that treed saddles are more secure and stable for the rider, in the event of a spook or mishap?
I’m not talking about weight distribution or pressure for the horse, but safety for the rider.
Here is one study, it is just a news report on the study though. http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Your-Horse-News/Search-Results/Gear-news/April-08/No-advantage-to-treeless-saddles/
[QUOTE=ytr45;5639433]
Is there any truth to the claim that treed saddles are more secure and stable for the rider, in the event of a spook or mishap?
I’m not talking about weight distribution or pressure for the horse, but safety for the rider.[/QUOTE]
I have actually found the opposite to be true. I’ve found that my treeless saddle is MORE secure and stable in the event of a spook (my horse can teleport himself 6 feet or more to the side in the blink of an eye). I belong to a treeless saddles discussion group and several members on there have speculated that since the treeless saddle allows you to sit closer to and feel your horse better that you can actually anticipate and react faster. Also, that the horse in motion under the stiff treed saddle will actually throw the rider off balance easier.
I ride in a Sensation Hybrid treeless saddle which, IMHO, is one of the finest quality treeless saddles out there.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz258/dorim_2005/100_3925.jpg
[QUOTE=fuzzy.pony;5639456]
Here is one study, it is just a news report on the study though. http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Your-Horse-News/Search-Results/Gear-news/April-08/No-advantage-to-treeless-saddles/[/QUOTE]
This was not an independent study. It was done by a group of saddlers (makers of treed saddles?) doesn’t describe which treeless saddles they used, what the firmness or thickness of the padding under the saddle was, what the conformation of the horses were. They didn’t have a treeless saddle expert on hand to assist in properly fitting the saddle…there is a lot wrong with this “study”.
I guess you can call it whatever you want. 
Imagine that…conflicting studies! :lol: I guess I’ll have to go with my own personal experience which has been very favorable for treeless saddles…in particular the Fhoenix…which I’ve used over 5 years now with no ill effects. Treed saddles caused all sorts of problems for my horse and no saddler could fit him. God knows I tried to make treed saddles work but I am so glad I was willing to at least try a treeless on him since it turned out to be a fantastic solution.
I vote for free choice and letting people use what works best for their horses. :yes:
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;5639491]
I vote for free choice and letting people use what works best for their horses. [/QUOTE]
Hear! Hear! Well said!
I have both treed and treeless saddles, and like ‘em n ride’ em both. How’s that for free choice right in my own tack room? 
[QUOTE=LMH;5638982]
Good Grief…what a silly argument Carrie gave.[/QUOTE]
No kidding! A treed saddle has never slipped? A rider in a treed saddle has never lost balance? What a ridiculous argument.
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;5639491]
I vote for free choice and letting people use what works best for their horses. :yes:[/QUOTE]
Me too! It just bothers me when people poo poo a whole idea based on nothing more than propaganda distributed by others with an agenda…or, even worse, opinions of strangers who have no first hand knowledge and proclaim treeless saddles dangerous and harmful. Heck…Carrie said in her blog post that she had personally witnessed wrecks involving treeless saddles so therefore they are dangerous. Sure…in that case we should blame the saddle! Oh, wait! I’ve witnessed wrecks with treed saddles so they must be dangerous too! Yeah, that’s just stupid.
I use a treeless on one of my horses after nearly going broke trying treed saddles on him. He loves it-goes better in it than he did in any other saddle. I am not running out to use this same saddle on all my other horses but for this horse, it’s his saddle and pad, but it’s certainly been a functional saddle for me on hundreds of mountain miles.
I have mounted from the ground on this saddle many times, once having forgotten to tighten my cinch, and it’s never slipped. I have ridden out several hard spooks on it too-it has never slipped. I’ve used it on a variety of our other horses-no problems.
This one is a circle Y/ BMSS-I can’t speak to the Barefoot saddles. It’s not my forever saddle, there is a treed saddle in my future as I move on to other horses. I am short and not having any structure is uncomfortable to me after a few hours on the bigger barreled horses. I also need to be able to use a saddle horn and obviously can’t on this one.
They aren’t the cure for everything but they can be a viable saddle option, IME. I think experience counts for a lot. It’s easy to sit behind a keyboard and find things on the internet to support your POV but first hand experience counts for something. My horse’s experience counts for something, too-so I take it all into account.
The “treeless sadle philosophy” is built on a number of fallacies.
First, that such a saddle will fit any horse. Not true at all. That which will do on an 800 lb. Arab or Paso Fino will likely not to at all on a 1600 lb. draft cross.
Second, that a treeless will effectively distribute weight. If you’ve ever taken high school physics you know this can’t be true. If you haven’t the try this test: make up a nice, gooey, mud wallow. Put a piece of heavy cloth over it and then step on the cloth. Note what happens. Now put a 12" by 12" piece of wood on the mud and step on it. Note what happens. Now apply this principle to your weight on a horse’s back.
Third, as noted, they require heavier girthing to maintain stability. Maybe not such a good thing. Perhaps this is a subset of the “one size fits all” fallacy.
Fourth, rigid tree saddles do not give. A tree made of cast iron might not give, but even a heavy, steer roping saddle will flex some under a rider’s weight. Note that this flexion is a Good Thing as it helps the saddle accomodate the constantly changing geometry of the back. At the same time it provides a very stable platform for the rider without creating pressure spots. IMO this answers the question as to whether or not a treed or treeless saddle is a safer and more stable riding platform.
The constant stream of anacdotes does not, IMO, change the physics or equine biomechanics of the world.
G.
G. I and others have experience with treeless saddle being quite stable without being overly-tight.
The ability of the rider place a far bigger role, IMHO.
And again-the padding is a big part of the ‘system.’
Certainly all saddles, treed or treeless, will not fit all horses.
I have 2 ridden horses-each has 2 saddles-one treed and one treeless. I am not able to swap either treed or treeless between horses.
It is not treed or treeless-it is the entire package, saddle fit, padding, rider balance, etc
Where’d you find that philosophy?
I’ve used them for YEARS and that is not how I feel about them at all.
- they are NOT a fit for all horses, that’s ridiculous
- that’s what the weight distributing pads are for
- I girth mine lighter than I did with any of my treed saddles
- They don’t give enough or flex fast enough. Ask my horse, I did and she distinctly expressed her opinion of treed vs treeless in the favor of the treeless.
I would love to know the source of your philosophy on treeless saddles.
I say let the riders use what works best for their horses.
I’m not personally a fan of treeless saddles, but I don’t see them as sufficiently “dangerous” to ban on a trail ride.
I do find some small degree of irony that the attempt to ban them was allegedly a safety issue, but the same organization does not require helmets for adults.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;5639571]
The “treeless sadle philosophy” is built on a number of fallacies.
First, that such a saddle will fit any horse. Not true at all. That which will do on an 800 lb. Arab or Paso Fino will likely not to at all on a 1600 lb. draft cross.
Second, that a treeless will effectively distribute weight. If you’ve ever taken high school physics you know this can’t be true. If you haven’t the try this test: make up a nice, gooey, mud wallow. Put a piece of heavy cloth over it and then step on the cloth. Note what happens. Now put a 12" by 12" piece of wood on the mud and step on it. Note what happens. Now apply this principle to your weight on a horse’s back.
Third, as noted, they require heavier girthing to maintain stability. Maybe not such a good thing. Perhaps this is a subset of the “one size fits all” fallacy.
Fourth, rigid tree saddles do not give. A tree made of cast iron might not give, but even a heavy, steer roping saddle will flex some under a rider’s weight. Note that this flexion is a Good Thing as it helps the saddle accomodate the constantly changing geometry of the back. At the same time it provides a very stable platform for the rider without creating pressure spots. IMO this answers the question as to whether or not a treed or treeless saddle is a safer and more stable riding platform.
The constant stream of anacdotes does not, IMO, change the physics or equine biomechanics of the world.
G.[/QUOTE]
First-of course they don’t fit every horse, I don’t see that being asserted here.
Second-you haven’t accounted for the weight distribution of the human rear end, pads and the construction of the saddle. A tree may distribute weight over a greater surface area but I’m not so sure that is the ultimate factor in all cases-my horse did better without the unyeilding pressure of the tree on a larger surface of his back-he prefers the squishier smaller pressure area. Take it up with him! :lol:
Third-my saddle is rigged exactly like our western saddles. no difference.
Fourth-if a rider is using the tree to stay on they are creating pressure spots. A tree does not accomodate a changing back to any useful degree.
I think treed saddles came about not for horse comfort but for the rider’s comfort. Stirrups, packing, roping, warfare-all require a tree and horses were considered at least somewhat dispensable. I think that centuries of treed saddle craftsmanship have resulted in high quality saddle trees that now take the horse into consideration. People now need a tree for most things they do, people aren’t just going down the trail as a means of travel like they used to. Plenty of horses were ridden bareback to school and town on a daily basis without documented issues. Even a generation ago people had one saddle that they used on every horse with very few exceptions. Government issue saddles for every horse in the cavalry… I don’t believe a tree is the end-all, be-all of horse comfort. It’s a good place to start but it’s not always the result.
And I think hands-on experience does count for something.
So the treeless saddle doesn’t fit every horse…neither does a treed saddle. And I have seen more treed saddles fitted improperly than I ever will see treeless.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;5639571]
The “treeless sadle philosophy” is built on a number of fallacies.
First, that such a saddle will fit any horse. Not true at all. That which will do on an 800 lb. Arab or Paso Fino will likely not to at all on a 1600 lb. draft cross.
Second, that a treeless will effectively distribute weight. If you’ve ever taken high school physics you know this can’t be true. If you haven’t the try this test: make up a nice, gooey, mud wallow. Put a piece of heavy cloth over it and then step on the cloth. Note what happens. Now put a 12" by 12" piece of wood on the mud and step on it. Note what happens. Now apply this principle to your weight on a horse’s back.
Third, as noted, they require heavier girthing to maintain stability. Maybe not such a good thing. Perhaps this is a subset of the “one size fits all” fallacy.
Fourth, rigid tree saddles do not give. A tree made of cast iron might not give, but even a heavy, steer roping saddle will flex some under a rider’s weight. Note that this flexion is a Good Thing as it helps the saddle accomodate the constantly changing geometry of the back. At the same time it provides a very stable platform for the rider without creating pressure spots. IMO this answers the question as to whether or not a treed or treeless saddle is a safer and more stable riding platform.
The constant stream of anacdotes does not, IMO, change the physics or equine biomechanics of the world.
G.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know where you got your “treeless sadle philosophy” but Nobody here ever said that treeless saddles will fit every horse but then neither do treed saddles. Saddle fit is just as important for a treeless saddle as it is for a treed saddle.
My horse is happy being ridden in his treeless saddle. You can ask him if he has a problem with increased pressure, i have checked for back soreness after long rides and he has not reacted one bit, muscles remained soft unreactive. He had a definite opinion about his treed saddle though, complete with pissy expression, pinned ears and wringing tail.
You are right…rigid trees do not give, yet the live creature beneath it and live creature above it are in constant motion. I really don’t know how a saddle that fits when the horse is standing still is supposed to still fit when the horse starts moving. 
I don’t need a “platform” to remain stable while riding. I find such “platforms” provide an unyeilding, uncomfortable, perched feeling. Nor do I require a tight girth to keep my saddle stable. My girth has elastic at both ends and is no tighter than I used on a treed saddle.
The constant stream of anectdotes provide “real life experiences” rather than class room math which IMHO is much more compelling. For pete’s sake, it’s not rocket science, if it works it just works. My horse said so!
ETA: Re: the cloth over the mud wallow…most treeless saddles have enough structure to them with foam panels and what not that they CAN distribute a rider’s weight somewhat, certainly much more than a simple cloth. This, in addition to a quality treeless saddle pad, does a pretty good job. Your analogy of a simple heavy weight cloth to illustrate a treeless saddle shows that you’ve never had the opportunity to actually look at the detail involved in the structure of a well designed saddle. My saddle is a real saddle with real structure and is much, much more than a glorified bareback pad.
