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ACTHA bans treeless saddles

Endurance and Trail Riding
#41

It would be nice to see a well-designed study with lots of different treed saddle, different treeless saddle, different shaped horses AND a wide variety of riders.

Personally, I suspect the biggest contributor to accidents, pressure sores, etc. are riders who can’t really ride very well :wink:

Those who don’t have particularly good balance, are overweight and don’t have an “independent” seat.

I suspect that a certain # of treeless supporters (aside from those who jump on any fad) are fairly new riders who are attracted to treeless because of the generally lower cost and the mistake-free idea that it will fit “any” horse.

Makes it as easy as writing a check…

Now, before the mob starts forming and lighting their torches, this is not an all-inclusive statement, but I have seen these people be attracted to treeless for the reasons stated…

#42

The orginal saddle was a cloth (animal skin or woven mat) thrown accross the horse’s back.

Then some bright fellow figured out that a solid platform allowed him more utility from his horse. Now this guy was likely a mounted warrior of some sort. He might have been Roman, but more likely was Partian (a noted tribe of mounted warriors and experts with the bow; ever heard of a “Parthian Shot”?; if not, Google it). Even if he were a Roman he would have appreciated the solid platform for use of his lance, sword, club, etc. His horse would have appreciated that the solid platform gave his rider better balance and better distributed the weight of rider, armor, weapons, food, etc. on it’s back.

The the bit, the iron shoe, the stirrup, all were devices to allow greater utility of the horse. The saddle tree is squarely in that family.

I note that not one of you defending these devices has ever addressed my little “mud wallow test.”

Here are some scans that are interesting. There’s only one “treeless” but it tells the story.

http://www.saddlefitting.net/equiscan/index.html

The “philosophy” noted is a compilation of the justifications of and for these “treeless” saddles over the past ten years or so I’ve followed them.

They don’t work; they can’t work, except, possibly, for extemely athletic, small framed riders (think jockeys, etc.). I watched a 250 lb. rider climb onto a demo horse with an Ansur saddle at a demo and I thought the poor horse was going to it’s knees.

I’ve read the reams of anacdotes from folks who claim to use them without issue. Maybe they do, but maybe they don’t.

G.

#43

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5639881]
It would be nice to see a well-designed study with lots of different treed saddle, different treeless saddle, different shaped horses AND a wide variety of riders.

Personally, I suspect the biggest contributor to accidents, pressure sores, etc. are riders who can’t really ride very well :wink:

Those who don’t have particularly good balance, are overweight and don’t have an “independent” seat.

I suspect that a certain # of treeless supporters (aside from those who jump on any fad) are fairly new riders who are attracted to treeless because of the generally lower cost and the mistake-free idea that it will fit “any” horse.

Makes it as easy as writing a check…

Now, before the mob starts forming and lighting their torches, this is not an all-inclusive statement, but I have seen these people be attracted to treeless for the reasons stated…[/QUOTE]

OK…no torch but I’d like to respond to a few of your statements.

I’m 50 years old, have been riding most of my life. I can’t afford to jump on every fad. I’ve owned my own horses for almost 20 years and for most of those years rode in treed saddles. I moved to treeless when my younger gelding started showing displeasure with his saddle. I was attracted to the design and the claims of better comfort for my horse and since I was moving to a more “natural” way of going (barefoot, bitless etc) treeless just seemed like the natural progression for me. Most people I know who ride in treeless saddles do so for a variety of reasons but none of them do so because they are “cheaper”. My Sensation Hybrid treeless saddle cost far more than any other saddle I’ve ever owned. Quality treeless saddles are NOT cheaper…e-bay trash is cheaper but you will pay for quality. There is a wide variety of quality in treeless saddles just like there is a wide variety of quality in treed saddles. You can buy an entire “starter package” treed english saddle complete with fittings and bridle in most catalogs for less than $200…would you ride in it? The same applies to treeless saddles. http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/English_Saddles/EP8414

ETA: If the only treeless saddles you have any knowlege of is the trash being pushed on Ebay then you are ill informed on the subject. Join the Treeless saddles group on yahoo, lots of good information on the better quality brands of treeless saddles.

#44

Well G, believe what you want, but I use them without issue for the horses I use them on. :lol:

Those scans prove nothing except that saddle on that horse with that pad and that rider did not work.

Change one factor and it would have a different outcome.

#45

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5639940]
I note that not one of you defending these devices has ever addressed my little “mud wallow test.”

Here are some scans that are interesting. There’s only one “treeless” but it tells the story.

http://www.saddlefitting.net/equiscan/index.html

G.[/QUOTE]

Re: the cloth over the mud wallow…most treeless saddles have enough structure to them with foam panels and what not that they CAN distribute a rider’s weight somewhat, certainly much more than a simple cloth. This, in addition to a quality treeless saddle pad, does a pretty good job. Your analogy of a simple heavy weight cloth to illustrate a treeless saddle shows that you’ve never had the opportunity to actually look at the detail involved in the structure of a well designed saddle. My saddle is a real saddle with real structure and is much, much more than a glorified bareback pad.

The scans shown above mentioned the sports saddle but didn’t mention whether it had the proper padding system under it. I also noticed that they sell the Sharon Saare saddles on that site and coincidentally the Sharon Saare had the most perfect scan :rolleyes:. I would rather see an INDEPENDENT study with an expert treeless saddle fitter assisting, I just don’t trust that Joe Blow treed saddle seller is knowledgeable enough to do a proper “study”. You can believe what you want but unless you have personal experience (250 pound rider in an Ansur not designed for that heavyweight aside) you won’t ever really “know” if they work or not. I worked with an experienced professional saddle fitter (she is qualified to fit both treed and treeless saddles) to ensure that I had the proper fit for my horse/saddle. I do have personal experience on trails for hours at a time and I know what works for me and my horse. The proof is his happy attitude and painfree saddle fit.

ETA:
QUOTE=Guilherme;5639940]
Here are some scans that are interesting. There’s only one “treeless” but it tells the story.

http://www.saddlefitting.net/equiscan/index.html

G.[/QUOTE]
What story? That that saddle/pad/rider combo for that horse doesn’t work? Meh, change one thing and probably will work. What I saw was the bigger story of a LOT of poorly fitted TREED saddles.

#46

[QUOTE=LMH;5639983]
Well G, believe what you want, but I use them without issue for the horses I use them on. :lol:

Those scans prove nothing except that saddle on that horse with that pad and that rider did not work.

Change one factor and it would have a different outcome.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY!!! Joe Blow treed saddle seller has no motiviation whatsoever to try to make it work in his “study”.

#47

[QUOTE=PRS;5639123]
With many endurance riders doing 50’s and 100’s (including Tevis) successfully and winning in treeless saddles I’ll take that as a positive endorsement for treeless saddles. Endurance is one of the only equestrian sports that I know of where the animals are subject to vet checks along the way. I ride in a treeless saddle and will continue to do so. My horse is far more comfortable in his treeless saddle than he’s ever been in his treed saddle. My saddle is secure and stable on my horse and I feel even more secure in the my treeless saddle than I ever did in my treed saddles. They have come a long way in the last 10 years or so with the advances in technology and designs. Yes, the pad should be considered a part of the whole package but once you get it right for a particular horse/rider combo it works. Like any saddle quality is important, going with an E-Bay cheapie might be detrimental to either your or your horses’ health. Treeless saddles may not be suitable for every horse/rider combo and just like a treed saddle proper fit is important. I think this Carrie person attempting to define what a “real” saddle is or isn’t just shows how narrow minded she and her association is. Follow the money…she has Tucker Saddle as a sponsor. They had previously banned folks from riding in rope halters until she visited and filmed a program or something at the Parelli ranch and suddenly rope halters are ok…as long as someone is promoting them…hmmm…something stinks and I won’t be joining.[/QUOTE]

Very well said, so I’ll just ditto you.

Unfortunately, I did join, after being told I could compete in a riding halter, only to later be told I could NOT compete bitless unless my equipment utilized leverage. ACTHA is a great idea, poorly organized and likely doomed to failure. The whole HSUS thing was proof that - not just the association, but the total mishandling of the entire thing.

#48

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5639029]
I call “banana oil” on this one. :slight_smile:

I’ve seen the results of several studies done with pressure sensitive pads demonstrating beyond to a moral certainty that “treeless” saddles create massive pressure points and serious impair the ability of a horse’s back to function correctly. The best was done by Ray Miller in WI several years ago. I would want to see the 5Ws on any “study” that claims otherwise.

Carrie’s decision was a good one and based upon sound judgement. She was dissuaded by threats of the mob.

G.[/QUOTE]

A study done years ago would be irrelevant now. Treeless saddles and pads have come a long way in the last few years. Any study done several years ago would have to be replicated to carry any weight.

#49

Been riding for 38 of my 40 years and I ride hundreds of miles in a year over all sorts of terrain. I’m also on the short easy-keeper side. My treeless saddle was the most expensive one I bought.

I said your mud wallow test didn’t account for the additional padding and weight distribution that is accounted for by saddle pad under a treeless. A better comparison would be to sit on a saddle pad in the mud and then sit on a saddle tree on that pad on the mud. And I would suggest that the difference you get in pressure would make little to no difference to some horses, if not all of them. My horse apparently prefers the flexibility of my saddle, pad and my rear end over the rigid weight distribution of a treed saddle. A horse deals with more pressure between a 100 lb rider and a 250 lb rider, tree or no tree. You’re all about a few inches of weight distribution and I’m not convinced that’s all there is to it.

They can and do work-your denials can’t change that.

#50

[QUOTE=PRS;5639523]
Me too! It just bothers me when people poo poo a whole idea based on nothing more than propaganda distributed by others with an agenda…or, even worse, opinions of strangers who have no first hand knowledge and proclaim treeless saddles dangerous and harmful. Heck…Carrie said in her blog post that she had personally witnessed wrecks involving treeless saddles so therefore they are dangerous. Sure…in that case we should blame the saddle! Oh, wait! I’ve witnessed wrecks with treed saddles so they must be dangerous too! Yeah, that’s just stupid.[/QUOTE]

And I’ve seen wrecks where people were riding bareback - and wrecks where people weren’t even riding. DANG! It must be the horses that are dangerous. No more horses at ACTHA rides - there’s the solution!

#51

Not lynching you either but my Fhoenix is the most expensive saddle I’ve ever bought also. It cost about $2000 in 2006 and it’s imported from the UK. Now, yes, you can buy el cheapo treeless saddles on Ebay which are a piece of junk but just like treed Argentine saddles you can buy cheap, you get what you pay for.

Speaking for the Fhoenix and other saddles of this line, they are not without form or shape to distribute weight. There is a cantle piece inside that holds open a gullet that actually clears the spine completely…just like a regular saddle. The padding is very soft and thick and the saddle forms around the horse’s back when you sit in the saddle. It is not like the bareback pad types of treeless but most of the newer ones these days have evolved past that. The EE line of saddles like the Fhoenix do not need special pads. These are the ones that Heather Moffett tested and here are some comments off her site on it.

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/faq_saddles.htm

More on the Phoenix style I use:

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/booklet.htm

#52

I’ve ridden thousands of miles in my Bandos trail saddle with a Haf pad. I tried countless treed saddles first, and I had NO agenda in choosing treeless. I actually went to an all female camping weekend, where numerous people let me try saddles on my horse, because even though I was working with a saddle fitter and a trainer, I couldn’t find a saddle that worked for us for regular, long, challenging rides. I think I rode in about a dozen different treed saddles and two treeless saddles that weekend. Jet chose the treeless, quite obviously, from the moment I first mounted her in one. Her gait improved, her expression improved; she was a happy horse. It was a bit of an adjustment for me, but I love riding treeless now. Her back is healthy with no soreness despite very long and difficult rides hauling my rather large self around. We have beautiful, even sweat patterns with a dry spine. I couldn’t ask for better proof that treeless saddles can be a good solution. It doesn’t really matter what studies you show me or don’t show me - the proof is in my horse, day in and day out.

#53

[QUOTE=katyb;5640187]
And I’ve seen wrecks where people were riding bareback - and wrecks where people weren’t even riding. DANG! It must be the horses that are dangerous. No more horses at ACTHA rides - there’s the solution![/QUOTE]

You owe me a new keyboard for that! I just spewed Dr.Pepper all over mine!

#54

These threads crack me up, but i’ll chip in and say that after 14yrs of riding and showing i bought the most expensive saddle i’ve ever owned out of desperation to make my mare happy when the fitters failed her.

I’ve been a very happy, satisfied treeless rider for the past 4yrs since that decision. I’m not anti treed saddles by any means, i’m for the fit and comfort of the horse. Mine firmly said trees dont work for her and after years and lots of $$$ trying to convince her otherwise but ending up riding bareback… I’m much happier in my treeless saddles. We’ve logged a lot of miles in that “heavy duty cloth!!!” and she’s never been happier.

For those that are so anti treeless saddles, put your hands on a good quality one before making these stupid comments. This is like comparing a 2k treed saddle with a piece of ebay cardboard treed saddle. It’s laughable.

A good treeless saddle will cost you the same as a good treed saddle, if not more.

There is no substitute for the well made, well fitting saddle that makes both horse and rider happy, be it treed or treeless.

There is NOTHING more unsafe about a treeless saddle than a treed one provided they fit correctly and arent being ridden by total morons.

#55

[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;5640301]
There is NOTHING more unsafe about a treeless saddle than a treed one provided they fit correctly and arent being ridden by total morons.[/QUOTE]

Yes!

#56

What does a top-notch treeless saddle sell for? Last time I was pricing them the Ansur was selling for close to $2000 or am I wrong? That is the higher end of mid-range treed saddles. A custom treed saddle will set you back WELL over $3000.

And the “natural” thing is – if not a “fad” then certainly a trend. Bitless, for instance. Unless a horse has a mouth injury, if it’s protesting against a bit, it probably has more to do with the rider’s hands than anything else.

But don’t want to get too far OT…again I’ve found that many of those who flock to bitless, treeless, etc. are those who just don’t have the knowledge or expertise to take the time it takes to weed through various other choices in terms of bits and saddles.

#57

Again – $2000 is not considered an expensive treed saddle (I can only speak for English – I haven’t ridden western in decades).

I can’t speak for or against either one, as I’ve never ridden in a treeless. Actually sounds like a cool idea and I’ve looked at some at tack stores & booths at some of the bigger endurance rides.

The part I find assuming is that this organization who banned them – don’t their rides only go 10 miles or under? Or am I wrong? Not familiar with them or their competitions at all.

For that little distance you could ride in almost anything and the horse would be ok…

#58

The part I find assuming is that this organization who banned them – don’t their rides only go 10 miles or under? Or am I wrong? Not familiar with them or their competitions at all.

For that little distance you could ride in almost anything and the horse would be ok…

Yes - about six miles. I agree, for those distances, it probably doesn’t make a huge difference what you ride in. My horse was hard to fit, but I think she would have been fine in a lot of saddles for the rides like that. We like to do long, challenging, frequent rides, which makes a good fit a much bigger issue.

And the “natural” thing is – if not a “fad” then certainly a trend. Bitless, for instance. Unless a horse has a mouth injury, if it’s protesting against a bit, it probably has more to do with the rider’s hands than anything else.

But don’t want to get too far OT…again I’ve found that many of those who flock to bitless, treeless, etc. are those who just don’t have the knowledge or expertise to take the time it takes to weed through various other choices in terms of bits and saddles.

I don’t see it as a fad here. I’m generally the only bitless/treeless rider around, unless one of my friends who had tried my tack and liked it is along. I went bitless much like I went treeless…my horse was happier and more responsive that way. I have one who is always bitless and two who go just as well either way. Again, what works for the horse/rider combination is probably the best choice, fad or not.

#59

Ansurs are over $3000 now. Most are between $3300 and $3800, new.

#60

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5641310]
What does a top-notch treeless saddle sell for? Last time I was pricing them the Ansur was selling for close to $2000 or am I wrong? That is the higher end of mid-range treed saddles. A custom treed saddle will set you back WELL over $3000.

And the “natural” thing is – if not a “fad” then certainly a trend. Bitless, for instance. Unless a horse has a mouth injury, if it’s protesting against a bit, it probably has more to do with the rider’s hands than anything else.

But don’t want to get too far OT…again I’ve found that many of those who flock to bitless, treeless, etc. are those who just don’t have the knowledge or expertise to take the time it takes to weed through various other choices in terms of bits and saddles.[/QUOTE]

I find your assumption that folks like me that “flock” to bitless, treeless etc are just not smart enough to take the time to weed through other choices insulting. You are assuming those other choice can work for us…or maybe we’ve already done that and found ourselves preferring treeless saddles. I look at it as a personal choice…not necessarily the LAST choice. I PREFER my treeless saddle as does my horse. I did my research before I bought it, I demoed it on my horse for several weeks on real trail rides. It is well designed, high quality and well made. My horse is happy to move out as he never did before in a treed saddle, the proof is there for me or anyone else to see. To assume that I just jumped on the first bandwagon that came by without doing my research IS very insulting to my intelligence. I am not anti treed saddles or anti bit. I ride one of my horses bitless and the other with a bit. They are all barefoot too…wanna take a shot at that? It works for me, where I live, with what I do with my horses.

I’ve found that most folks who speak against treeless saddles either don’t have any personal, first hand knowledge with them or have experience with ebay trash, or did not work with an expert in treeless saddles on their set up. They DO NOT work with every horse, no more than any particular style of treed saddles do.

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