[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5656633]
The Barefoot London, Bandos, and Black Forest all were a total bust for me. I owned the Bandos and trialed the others. So it still took me a few saddles to find the one that works, but it was worth the journey.[/QUOTE]
I tried the Barefoot London too…I didn’t like it at all - too “puffy”. I think that’s why I keep going back to the Ansur. I’d love to try a Fhoenix dressage saddle though.
I didn’t get any fancy saddle pad-I use a Pro Choice Air Ride pad-it has a channel between the two sides of the pad. The first summer I had the BMSS I used just a plain old Diamond Wool pad and we did great, no problems!
I’m sorry I’m late to this debate, but it’s actually sort of funny.
To me, if you’re an endurance rider and ridden enough different horses enough miles you get to the point where you shrug your shoulders and go back to the mantra that makes most sense:
WHATEVER WORKS!
When the new horse disproves your strongly held beliefs (because they almost always do in the way that horses seem destined to test your sense of absolutism) you simple refer back to the above:
WHATEVER WORKS!
I’ve got three horses competing, two of whom LOVE their treeless saddles although I try hard to keep them competing in their treed saddles because I am convinced my equitation in the treeless bears some resemblance to “troll.”
But when all else fails we go back to
WHATEVER WORKS!
and I ride the horses in the treeless because, let’s face it, their opinion is far more important than mine.
The more I hear about ACTHA, the more it makes me roll my eyes.
–Patti
[QUOTE=patti;5665736]
I’m sorry I’m late to this debate, but it’s actually sort of funny.
To me, if you’re an endurance rider and ridden enough different horses enough miles you get to the point where you shrug your shoulders and go back to the mantra that makes most sense:
WHATEVER WORKS!
When the new horse disproves your strongly held beliefs (because they almost always do in the way that horses seem destined to test your sense of absolutism) you simple refer back to the above:
WHATEVER WORKS!
I’ve got three horses competing, two of whom LOVE their treeless saddles although I try hard to keep them competing in their treed saddles because I am convinced my equitation in the treeless bears some resemblance to “troll.”
But when all else fails we go back to
WHATEVER WORKS!
and I ride the horses in the treeless because, let’s face it, their opinion is far more important than mine.
The more I hear about ACTHA, the more it makes me roll my eyes.
–Patti[/QUOTE]
But, but, but… you can’t use common sense on COTH…sheesh what are you thinking- LOL!
Amen to WHATEVER WORKS!
I wish these folks would stop saying treeless is banned by FEI, it’s annoying. Besides which, what decision an unrelated organization makes about tack rules shouldn’t affect yours.
I have seen horses both helped and harmed by treed saddles. I have seen horses both helped and harmed by treeless saddles. May you find what works for your horse without too much undue effort and heartache.
There are so many variables at play (waaay beyond just the tree or it’s absence) I cannot imagine how I might begin to design a study that could truly and accurately compare treed and treeless and determine the superiority of one over the other.
Now horses come in all shapes and sizes, but if the governing body of the ACTHA is noticing such a high number of wrecks due to saddle roll, perhaps some of those riders might like to bring their horses over to AERC and go a few more miles and see if that doesn’t help
interesting merry go round discussion! Anyway, yah, do what works for ya.
The fastest saddle that ever slipped on me was a nice but illfitting rigid saddle, too narrow for the horse. (Borrowed horse and saddle) Fortunately I was quick to hop off. First long ride I went on, ended up using a different saddle.
Last year I was riding 5 miles at a time (3-4 days a week usually) with a bareback pad, (tall but slim paso fino) doing fine. went to a weeklong campout ride and started riding almost 20 miles a day, by 3rd day the bareback pad wasn’t working, he was getting a sore spine, I switched to a western tree saddle for a couple days with a corrector pad and shims, (quality reining horse saddle) sore spot started developing at another spot on his spine, saddle was too wide in back and even the back shims were not enough. I carved some shim thickeners out of closed cell foam and finished the week with no more issues.
I learned long ago, when dealing with animals and humans who are of all shapes and sizes and characters, very few rigid rules actually work all the time, there will be exceptions to almost everything. training, saddle fit etc. The basic principals apply, spread out yer weight as much as possible with whatever appliance is chosen. And since we’re dealing with a non rigid surface that moves constantly (the horses back) a rigid surface mated to it isn’t going to work very well long term. The cowboys who really work horses steady normally have more than one horse to trade off on. Or they have to pay special attention to their saddle fit. And me sitting there with what little area I cover doesn’t work well either, some inbetween solution must be used, anything from a well designed treeless to a treed with pad or adaptations to allow movement under it and still maintain plenty of area contact for minimal PSI.
I found it takes a lot of leg strength and good balance to stay on without using a saddle. Specially a quick moving horse like most paso finos are.
I have the balance as a natural gift from God and the strength from a lot of hard work even though I haven’t rode a huge amount and didn’t grow up riding.
Hey, Reuben!
Hi Everyone,
This is Tammy from ACTHA here. I wanted to let you know that ACTHA does permit the treeless saddles to be used in all ACTHA Competitions. We had discussed not allowing treeless saddles, but through discussion this did not become an official rule. The only types of saddle we do not allow are bareback pads.
Our overall goal at ACTHA is to help support horses in need and provide a fun venue for contestants, giving horse and rider an enjoyable goal. We are also concerned for the welfare and safety of you and your horse at all times. There is new equipment being introduced to the market all the time and the type saddle you use is personal choice. Regardless of your choice, whether Western, English, Flex Tree or Treeless, we encourage all riders to take advantage of professional consultation when fitting their saddle of choice to their horses. Proper fit relative to the shape of your horse, proper positioning of your tack, good quality and safety must all be considered. Safety is the most important aspect to us here at ACTHA.
The banning of tie downs and martingales on the ACTHA trail was due to the presence of water on a lot of the ACTHA trails, and we all know how water and head training devices are not good for horses! Safety is key! We also wanted trail horses relaxed and free of any head training devices while on the trail.
We love horses at ACTHA, and just want what is best for them!! Thanks so much. If you have any questions, please email me at tammy@actha.us
Happy Trails!!
Hi Tammy…your statement doesn’t change the original discussion as prompted by ignorant statments in Carrie’s blog claiming treeless saddles are dangerous to both rider and horse. I say “ignorant” because I’m sure Carrie has no personal experience with a well fitted, quality treeless saddle. There is no one size fits all treed or treeless and it is alway wrong to make such sweeping statements as Carrie made on her blog. Many of the things she blamed on treeless saddles in particular happen every single day in treed saddles too. Some of her statements were just wrong. Tom Scrima also came on this very thread and claimed that they felt justified in making the rule in the first place because FEI banned them…that is just not true and I don’t know where he got his information…he never got back to us with a link. That kind of ignorance will keep me and my money far away from ATHCA
From Carrie’s Blog:
Hi to all, I’m writing you today with my thoughts surrounding treeless saddles. I have personally witnessed several “wrecks” involving treeless saddles. These particular “wrecks” were due to the saddle rolling while mounting, riders becoming unbalanced and discomfort to the horse by over cinching. (Seriously? This never happens in a treed saddle?)The spinal column of a horse is a far more delicate part of his anatomy, than the large muscles surrounding it. The overall purpose of a tree in a saddle is to evenly distribute the weight of the rider and protect the spinal column of the horse, lifting weight off the spine, and distributing it more evenly across the larger muscles. (Why the heck do you think we purchase those horrendously expensive pads specifically designed for treeless saddles?)This makes sense to me.
Let’s talk about girthing. For a horse to breathe properly and effectively during performance, it is far better to not have him cinched too tightly. I personally use elastic girths,(Me too and I ride in a gasp treeless saddle) for the comfort and performance of my horse. Now, let’s talk about saddle fit. Sure, some horses are hard to fit. But, I have noticed that saddle manufactures have risen to the occasion by using flex trees and interchangeable gullets. Also, the pad manufacturers, like Cavallo, have produced several magnificent pads to help alleviate saddle fitting problems. (Say…isn’t Cavallo a sponsor of yours? Come to think of it so is Tucker…hmmmm I wonder…?)Our overall goal at ACTHA is to help support horses in need and provide a fun venue for contestants, giving horse and rider an enjoyable goal. But remember this, we are also concerned for the welfare and safety of you and your horse at all times. There is new equipment being introduced to the market all the time and the type saddle you use is personal choice. I have shared with you today the reasons I choose to use a treed saddle. Regardless of your choice, whether Western, English, Flex Tree or Treeless, we encourage all riders to take advantage of professional consultation when fitting their saddle of choice to their horses. Proper fit relative to the shape of your horse, proper positioning of your tack, good quality and safety must all be considered. Be safe and have fun in whatever you choose to ride in. Carry on, Carrie
Written by Tammy of ACTHA - “Safety is the most important aspect to us here at ACTHA.”
Then maybe you’d require wearing helmets like many other recognized horse sports rather than worry about people who use treeless saddles - just sayin.
[QUOTE=mysaygrace;5669692]
Written by Tammy of ACTHA - “Safety is the most important aspect to us here at ACTHA.”
Then maybe you’d require wearing helmets like many other recognized horse sports rather than worry about people who use treeless saddles - just sayin.[/QUOTE]
Haha! Yeah, I just BET safety is the most important thing. If so then all competitors would be required to wear helmets. Sounds like there are some folks in that organization who are more worried about the PR problem they created with such an arbitrary rule (even if it was rescinded). Ol’ Carrie just didn’t get how many folks are competing successfully in treeless saddles. :lol:
YES!!! This is also why my daughter and I will not ever be riding one of their rides.
[QUOTE=mysaygrace;5669692]
Written by Tammy of ACTHA - “Safety is the most important aspect to us here at ACTHA.”
Then maybe you’d require wearing helmets like many other recognized horse sports rather than worry about people who use treeless saddles - just sayin.[/QUOTE]
I think it is to funny about the helmet thing! They are not worried about safety! My husband did one ACTHA ride, he was the only one with a hemet and vest. They all looked at him wierd. But we only get one body, and even the best horse is dangerous so we always wear our equipment, because we are worth it!
It sounds to me like the saddle makers are in revolt against treeless saddles…I agree that one should use tack that is safe and fits the rider and horse…however, people discuss the weight of the saddles etc., but where is the discussion about the weight of the rider? Certainly, that has an effect on the stability of the saddle when mounting and riding, as well as added stress on the horse. Riding is, after all, both an art and a sport, and requires athletic ability of both the rider and the horse. Just sayin’…and ducking…lol
Safety is the most important aspect to us here at ACTHA.
The banning of tie downs and martingales
tie downs/standing martingales, ok fine, but there are lots of horses for whom it would be unsafe to do a trail ride without a running martingale (which isn’t a “head training” device nor does it “stress” the horse since it doesn’t even engage unless the horse misbehaves; many people think of them as a “safety” device because they also help keep the reins in place during more exciting moments of riding, and also help keep a horse under control).
I posted this already -Glad that ACTHA could go back and change a rule. “He that never changes his opinions, never corrects his mistakes, and will never be wiser on the morrow than he is today.” ~ Tryon Edwards
ACTHA is a great idea. It is going to have some growing pains.
Instead of bashing try to help guide it.
Be careful interpreting research…
[QUOTE=walkers;5638561]
I wish i could find the research but don’t have time to hunt for it tonight, probably from The Horse or AEEP. What I remember from it is that treeless saddle had the worst results for protecting a horse back of all saddles tested. They do not distribute your weight,put pressure on the spine (device tested pressure ) and resulted in long term damage to horses back. Don’t flame me that’s the research. Treeless saddles are a fad, poorly conceived and damaging to your horse. Look it up. Read research not ads! Save a horse ride a real saddle.[/QUOTE]
I know the very well respected researcher who conducted the most widely quoted study that says treeless saddles do not have good weight distribution and that they put weight on the spine. She is a wonderful person and a fabulous researcher. However, when I talked to her about this study and I asked her how many different saddles she tested and what kind of treeless-specific pads they used, this is what she told me: They tested ONE saddle, and they didn’t use a pad at all! They wanted to get a “baseline” for the saddle itself, but that is not at all how these saddles are designed to be used. First off, most treeless saddles rely on specially designed pads to create the channel that keeps the saddle off the spine. Secondly, not all treeless saddles are created equal – not by a long shot. Some truly are glorified bareback pads, while others are well-constructed and well-engineered to distribute weight. In order for a study to draw any truly applicable conclusions, the researchers would have to test different kinds with different pads. This researcher told me flat out that she didn’t have anything but the one to test, and the study did not have the scope (money) to test a bunch of different things. She also stated that she never intended her study to be interpreted as any kind of blanket condemnation of treeless saddles on the whole, and that she specifically stated that “more study is needed”. She is actually not at all pleased that her results are being misinterpreted in this way and bandied about as “proof” that treeless saddles “don’t work”.
I personally bought a Freeform treeless in a model used extremely successfully by endurance riders. I figure if they can ride literally hundreds and hundreds of miles in these things with excellent results – and those horses’ backs are TESTED for soreness all the time – why on earth would I have a problem, when I ride maybe a couple of hours a few times a week?
I do find that I have to girth up tightly when the pads are in their “maximum poof” state, but the girth loosens up a bit during the ride as the pads compress a tad (they don’t flatten too much or collapse, but they do conform to the horse to a degree while you are riding). I always use double elastic girths with any saddle.
As for a “real” saddle “saving” a horse – you need to do more reading of research, my dear – and learn to truly understand it. If you do, you will find that an overwhelming percentage of horses show damage to their spines (radiographic evidence) as a result of being ridden in traditional saddles. So, do treed saddles "save’ horses – hardly. In many cases, they cause tremendous suffering. And, logically, if your treed saddle fits your horse when the horse is standing still on level ground, it is literally impossible for the same saddle to fit when the horse’s back changes shape in motion, and god help your poor horse if he gains or loses weight, either fat or muscle! If you are not getting your saddle professionally refitted (and reflocked) every few months, it is highly unlikely that it continues to fit your horse as best a treed saddle can.
In terms of rider security, treeless saddles are definitely not for everyone, but I have found that I am actually MORE secure in the one I ride in now than in any other saddle I’ve ever been in (and as a retired trainer, I’ve been in MANY), and I have stayed on through some hair-raising bucking fits that I don’t think I would have stayed on in my treed saddles. Wild and fast spins, too.
Treeless saddles are also not “one size fits all”, as many think. Some models are really only suited to wider, flatter horses and are a nightmare for narrow horses or those with high withers. There are styles to accommodate such horses, but you have to know what you are doing with treeless saddles, just like with any other kind.
The other message I would like to emphasize: you need to know the details about any study before jumping to conclusions. It is my job to read such research (I am an equestrian journalist who specializes in health-related topics), and I learned long ago that studies are often like the bible: they can be interpreted many ways by many different people.
If anyone is interested in trying treeless saddles, I would recommend talking to the gals at Action Rider Tack. I do not own that business or work for them – I have just found them to be extremely knowledgeable and honest about treeless saddles, and they are very good about helping you to figure out which one (if any) would work for a particular horse and rider. They sell many different kinds and know the characteristics of the various brands and models.
The bottom line is that a horse’s back was never meant to hold the weight of a rider, and we continue to struggle to find ways to do this without causing them harm. I personally like to look to the hard-core endurance world, where the horses are continually looked at for any sign of back soreness, to find out what “works”. I have found this to be a very successful way to go, and I have had several vets and chiropractors comment on how healthy and flexible my old horse’s back and neck are (he is now 19), so I feel comfortable that I am not hurting him.
Hope this information is helpful to some of you folks!
Susan K
TheEquinist.blogspot.com
This is an ANCIENT thread over 4 years old. ACTHA rescinded their stupid decision 4 years ago as well.
Please just let this thread go back to the archives and sleep.
If you actually knew the research, you would understand this is NOT the case.
[QUOTE=walkers;5638561]
I wish i could find the research but don’t have time to hunt for it tonight, probably from The Horse or AEEP. What I remember from it is that treeless saddle had the worst results for protecting a horse back of all saddles tested. They do not distribute your weight,put pressure on the spine (device tested pressure ) and resulted in long term damage to horses back. Don’t flame me that’s the research. Treeless saddles are a fad, poorly conceived and damaging to your horse. Look it up. Read research not ads! Save a horse ride a real saddle.[/QUOTE]
The research you are talking about was done by Dr. Hilary Clayton at MSU. I talked with her about this study (I write articles about horses for a living and have interviewed her several times), and she told me the following: they only tested one model of one brand of treeless saddle (far from the best), and, more importantly, they used it WITHOUT one of the channel-creating pads that are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for use with treeless saddles that have no channel. She wholeheartedly agreed that her study should NOT be taken as a condemnation of treeless saddles altogether. Pressure tests have been conducted by other people showing that GOOD treeless saddles with the CORRECT pad actually distribute weight extremely well – better than most treed saddles. Freeform saddles, for example, are successfully used by many endurance riders, including multiple winners of the 100 mile Tevis Cup, considered by many to be the most demanding equine test in the world. Do you think they could ride like that – let alone win – if their saddles were making their horses sore? Those horses’ backs get checked at various points during the race – they would get pulled if they were sore. And the miles they put in to TRAIN for such a race would make most of us die of exhaustion. My take on anything to do with tack is that if it works for top endurance riders, it WORKS. I have been riding in a Freeform for years – I love it, and so do my horses.
[QUOTE=PRS;5639210]
But that’s the thing! A properly fitted, quality, treeless saddle DOES distribute the weight properly. But treeless or treed is a lot like the barefoot/shoes debate, it comes down to individuals doing what they think is best for them and their horses. Neither system is perfect and both can cause problems, as long as your saddle fits your horse and your horse agrees then all is well.[/QUOTE]
I don’t really have a dog in this fight but was just wondering - what is your evidence that treeless saddles distribute weight as well and evenly as a well fitted treed saddle?
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