There are a lot more of them out there now, so I’d love to hear which ones you like (or don’t) and why.
Currently I’m looking for an extra saddle that I can use on our 3-4 year olds until they finish growing and changing so much. Ideally I would love one with wool flocking, but I can live with foam panels (I don’t want CAIR panels though). Narrow twist. Any suggestions?
Are you looking for an adjustable gullet, like a Bates, or a tree that can be adjusted by a saddle maker/fitter with the right equipment…?
I’m guessing the latter… I’ve used an older Bates Caprilli on my youngster. It has CAIR, but if it were going to fit her in the long term (it’s not, and the flaps aren’t a good fit for me), I’d spend the $ to have the CAIR ripped out and wool added. I bought it used, so I’m not too concerned about the warranty!
The Pessoa line has an A/O model that has wool flocking and an adjustable gullet.
The panels are slightly different from normal wool panels as the wool in encased in a neoprene lining that keeps it from bunching.
There is also a Gen X model ( the GenX line is slightly less expensive ) coming in late winter that will have the AMS and the adjustable gullet.
I’m looking for an adjustable gullet, like a Bates or the XCH system. This saddle would be for multiple youngsters that we have for sale, so I’d like to avoid having to go to a fitter for things other than flocking adjustments on it (this wouldn’t be for long term use on anyone).
I actually already have a County and a Schleese that I adore, they are currently adjusted for two of our more permanent horses. This saddle would be more of an ‘extra’ one to be used on everyone else. 
A bonus would be to have a saddle around that is a bit less expensive so I won’t mind as much if one of our horses leasor’s decide borrow it to go ride in the pouring rain! :lol:
Well…I guess we could start with a working list.
There’s the Easy Change Gullet System saddles from Bates/Wintec/Collegiate, many of which are structurally repetitive with each other. So for example, if you like a narrow twist, the Bates Caprill is almost a match–except for the CAIR panels-- in which case you could go with the Collegiate Convertible Diploma, which is a wool-flocked near-exact replica of the Bates Caprilli in a grain leather. Think more like the leather you find on a football rather than fine bridle leather. It’s still very rideable, has a narrow twist, and it has a very nice price tag ($900-ish new, $500-$650 on used market). If you prefer a straighter flap, the Collegiate Convertible Alumni is basically the Caprilli/Diploma with a straighter flap.
Then there’s the XCH Gullet family from English Riding Supply, which includes a number of the Pessoa saddles (Legacy XP3, GenX, etc.) and some of the Ovations (Competition Showjumper, 4-Star Eventing, Evolution). I am not gaga for the leather quality on Pessoas, but IMO the leather and overall quality on the Pessoa Legacy line is better than the average Pessoa and on par with Bates. Pessoa Legacy is a good choice if/when you can get it at a reasonable used price (around $1200 used). I certainly wouldn’t pay $2K for a new one. The GenX with XCH can be found reasonably priced new around $1000-$1300, but the leather quality blows, so you get what you pay for.
If you ask me, Ovation is the sleeper hit of the entry-level saddle world. I would not hesitate to purchase an Ovation Competition Showjumper (for a more forward flap) or an Ovation Evolution (for a straighter flap). REALLY a nice saddle for the money; it can compete easily with Bates or Pessoa and it retails at half the price. The trouble is putting your hands on them; it’s awfully tough to find them from a saddlery with a good trial policy. Trumbull Mountain sells the Ovation Competition Showjumper but without the XCH gullet. VTO Saddlery sells the Ovation Evolution but I don’t know what their trial situation is with that particular saddle.
Toulouse just released the Annice model (their Antares knockoff) with their new Genesis gullet. I have not seen the Genesis gullet with my own two eyes, but what I saw in their Genesis promotional video made it look pretty fragile to me. I’ve heard nice things about the Annice’s ride-ability, but mixed reviews on its fit for horses. And I think Toulouse’s double-leather is absolute trash. It looks like hell after just a few years of proper use and care. Not the leather option I’d choose for someone riding youngsters.
HDR has oh so quietly started selling Adjust-to-Fit models, some of which are extremely economical, like their synthetic Competition Adjust-to-Fit close contact for about $410. I have only seen one of these in person and it was a synthetic model, so I am reluctant to comment on quality/fit. I’ll say that in general, HDR has never impressed me except their Rivella line, which seems to be better quality than their other stuff and would certainly get my attention if I were looking at saddles that retailed under $1K. And yes, several of the Adjust-to-Fit models are Rivellas. If you Google “Henri de Rivel Adjust-to-Fit” and “HDR Adjust-to-Fit” you’ll get a cavalcade of saddleries that are quietly stocking this lineup.
There are other options too, but they’re pretty obscure. For example, Classic (formerly Rembrandt) still makes an adjustable tree that can adjusts in infinitesimal increments with an Allen wrench. But they’re not cheap and they’re almost impossible to find used. For more info http://www.classicsaddlery.com/saddles/saddlesclassic.htm
If I had a fleet of young horses and wanted to reach for one of these saddles, I’d probably go in this order:
I say that based on leather quality, shape of saddle/panel that will fit a fairly wide diversity of horses, a reasonably diverse flap that can accommodate long and short stirrups, and a long enough presence on the market to be a known quantity.
If you wanted to try a whole mess of these convertible saddles, you could go through UsedSaddles.com. They will send you anything in their inventory, used or new, for a trial period. And they sell a very wide selection of the saddles mentioned here.
[QUOTE=SportsFan46;5314386]
The Pessoa line has an A/O model that has wool flocking and an adjustable gullet.
The panels are slightly different from normal wool panels as the wool in encased in a neoprene lining that keeps it from bunching.
There is also a Gen X model ( the GenX line is slightly less expensive ) coming in late winter that will have the AMS and the adjustable gullet.[/QUOTE]
Can a fitter still make minor adjustments to it with this neoprene lining?
Thanks jn4jenny, great post! I’m really leaning towards the Ovations so far, I like the look of the Four-Star Eventing Saddle, the Competition Show Jump Saddle and the Evolution Jumping Saddle. Those are in the price range that I was hoping for and seem to be of pretty decent quality for the price. Has anyone here tried one?
[QUOTE=WarmbloodColor;5314469]
Thanks jn4jenny, great post! I’m really leaning towards the Ovations so far, I like the look of the Four-Star Eventing Saddle, the Competition Show Jump Saddle and the Evolution Jumping Saddle. Those are in the price range that I was hoping for and seem to be of pretty decent quality for the price.[/QUOTE]
Be forewarned - the 4-Star Eventing is a nice saddle but it is VERY VERY VERY forward in the flap. If you look at the stock photo, you’ll see that they’ve tilted the entire saddle to make it look more normal in flap angle. This pic is tiny but will give you a better feel for the angle:
http://www.chaar.us/product_images/e/995/Ovation4StarSide__35498_thumb.jpg
The Ovation Competition Showjumper is also made with a forward flap option that is just a shade shy of that 4-Star event flap. I honestly think the normal flap on the Competition Showjumper would suit most folks.
On the upside, the twist on the 4-Star Eventing is quite narrow indeed, which you said that you like!
How about Kent & Masters, Hastilow Concept Saddles and Fairfax?
[QUOTE=Catmando;5314489]
How about Kent & Masters, Hastilow Concept Saddles and Fairfax?[/QUOTE]
The Kent & Masters are nice looking - I can’t find the price-range though. Are they available in the US?
I like the look of the Fairfax saddles, too. Thanks for the suggestions!
[QUOTE=jn4jenny;5314477]
Be forewarned - the 4-Star Eventing is a nice saddle but it is VERY VERY VERY forward in the flap. If you look at the stock photo, you’ll see that they’ve tilted the entire saddle to make it look more normal in flap angle. This pic is tiny but will give you a better feel for the angle:
http://www.chaar.us/product_images/e/995/Ovation4StarSide__35498_thumb.jpg
The Ovation Competition Showjumper is also made with a forward flap option that is just a shade shy of that 4-Star event flap. I honestly think the normal flap on the Competition Showjumper would suit most folks.
On the upside, the twist on the 4-Star Eventing is quite narrow indeed, which you said that you like![/QUOTE]
Good to know - I don’t mind a bit of a fwd flap (my husband actually prefers them and he would be using this, too). But I am quite short, so if they are tooooo far fwd I don’t think it would fit me well. This is the same model as my County, to get an idea of what type of flap fits my leg well:
http://warmbloods-for-sale.com/TackDetail.asp?CategoryID=1&TackID=31616
[QUOTE=WarmbloodColor;5314571]
Good to know - I don’t mind a bit of a fwd flap (my husband actually prefers them and he would be using this, too). But I am quite short, so if they are tooooo far fwd I don’t think it would fit me well. This is my current main saddle to get an idea of what type of flap fits my leg well:
http://www.equinenow.com/english_saddle-ad-443[/QUOTE]
If you’re used to a Stabilizer, then you will probably be more than fine with the standard flap on the Competition Showjumper or the Ovation Evolution–and probably not comfortable in the very-forward flap on the Ovation 4-Star Eventing. The Evolution’s flap is about the same angle as the Stabilizer’s and the Competition Showjumper is more forward than the Stabilizer. Reference pics:
http://www.vtosaddlery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OECLJS (and look, they have a Test Ride option!)
The Competition Showjumper saddle is also made with a long and/or forward flap if needed.
If you want to see the Competition Showjumper from more angles, this gal (who has long since sold this saddle because as you can see in the pics, it was too wide for her horse and was therefore dipping forward at the pommel) posted lots of good shots. You do have to consider that it’s dipping forward on the horse, but it shows you the back of the panels etc.:
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/got-my-new-saddle-today-but-im-339710.html
jn4jenny’s post was awesome, as was her ranking.
I’m wary of trees that aren’t adjustable by gullet plates. That part of the saddle takes the brunt of it all. Attaching a piece of steel by 2 screws along the tree points seems a better design than one that includes some kind of “cork screw” option where threads do the real work of widening- or closing a tree’s angle and having it stay that way.
I think the design on the Pessoas makes them easier to change than does the Bates. It’s a minor difference about the screw head being inside the gullet, or on the outside of the flap. I haven’t changed a gullet plate on one of these. The problem is not tightening that screw-- it’s about lining up the threads.
I have one of the first generation (Aussie-made) Bates Caprillis that I use as you intend. I spent an initial $200 and had the CAIR crap replaced with wool. It’s a useful, hardy saddle that has had just about every gullet plate in it.
I’m short and like what saddlers now consider a straight flap. If I were buying this kind of saddle again now, I’d put the Evolution first, based on design. I might put a Pessoa second because I like their panels, but like jn4jenny, I wouldn’t pay 2 Grand for a saddle made of their materials.
The Pessoas are well balanced saddles. But the Ovations are as well. I’d put any of the Bates saddles third as I don’t think their balance is quite as “traditional” as in the other two.
In adjustable saddles, there’s something to be said for buying what you like and what will hold up since the whole point of their design is to make them useful on many horses.
[QUOTE=Catmando;5314489]
How about Kent & Masters, Hastilow Concept Saddles, Fairfax?[/QUOTE]
I’d put these in the “obscure other” category with Classic. I suspect they’re all being made within throwing distance of each other in Walsall.
The Fairfax has a twist so wide you could drive a mack truck through it. Not what I’d ever recommend to someone who likes a narrow twist.
Kent & Masters and Hastilow would be worth a look, as would Classic, if the OP wanted to explore options at $1500 and above. But it sounds like she’s really looking for an extra saddle in the truest sense of the word, meaning one that won’t cost her a fortune and have poor resale value due to poor name recognition. I have recommended Hastilow and Kent/Masters to other folks with cobby horses, but doesn’t sound like a match here.
PS–mvp, I am tickled that you liked my post. Always nice to get props from another armchair saddle fitter. Agree 100% that Ovation Evolution should top the list for someone who’s been in a County Stabilizer, agree that Pessoa XCH is easier to adjust than Bates Easy Change (ask me about shopping the metric screw drawer at Lowes because I often stripped screws while changing those in my long-ago-sold Wintec/Bates tack). Also agree that those old Aussie-made Bates were great. I had an '02 Aussie Bates back in the day, and it was awesome. The newer ones are okay but can’t hold a candle in terms of leather quality and ride.
On the Bates issue.
A used one of these might be the right way to go, but I’d want to see the actual saddle first, as their quality varies and I suspect that one with a lot of milage on it may have problems. In checking it out, I’d want to take it apart (because you can!) and look at the tree points and threads in the holes meant to accept the screw that holds the gullet plate in. You also want to feel around for deflated CAIR bags. I don’t see how people can miss these, but tack store owners love to regale people with stories about the dumb a$$ who didn’t realize one of the 4 air bags was kaput and couldn’t figure out why their horse was sore.
But buying a used one and reflocking with wool will be a minimal and good investment.
People comment on the funky balance of the Caprilli. I grew up in the PdN era, so I can ride in whatever. I’m not quite as influenced by a saddle as are other people. I don’t know if the other, more modern CC Bates saddles have better balance to them. They look more conventional, but you really can’t tell by looking at stock photos. The differences are small. Many invisible as they have to do with the position of the stirrup bar (IMO) and can be visually changed by how the saddle was placed in the picture-- tipped forward or back.
I really like my Collegiate Diploma–my only quibble is that the flap is a bit too forward for my short legs. But it fits my horse well and seems well-made. I wasn’t crazy about the grained leather, I prefer smooth, but it wears well and is a nice colour and quality otherwise.
I looked at the Alumni also, but I think that wasn’t wool-flocked, if I remember correctly?
Avoid Bates and Collegiate. They have known issues with the tree points cracking, and the customer service to have it fixed is horrendous. They will have had my saddle for almost a year by the time it’s fixed, if they actually fix it this time. The first time, they returned it still broken, with some additional huge scratches in the leather.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282663&highlight=bates+saddle
And if you buy it used, they WILL NOT fix it, period. Mine was a gift so I never had the original receipt, and the only reason they are fixing it, IMO, is because they scratched the leather up while they had it the first time. The tack shop didn’t bother to keep records of purchased past a couple years, so I couldn’t get the receipt from them either.
Ovation Evolution
I bought an Evolution about six months ago. I am thrilled with it. It is a nice, nice saddle. The leather and stitching detail are gorgeous and it has oiled up into a supple, soft lovely saddle.
It has a narrow twist and nice balance. It does have foam flocking, but I can live with it for the price and the quality.
The best part…My super sensitive, thin skinned TB Loves it!
I haven’t had to change the gullet yet but it does look alot easier to access than the Bates products.
Good Luck
One of my barn mates as the Caprilli and I keep a Wintec pro jump as an “extra saddle”.
I quite like the Caprilli – I rode in it when she first got it and found it very comfortable and balanced. However, those saddles seem to come in an infinite number of variations! She bought hers used from Pelham and was able to have the Saddle Fitter evaluate it.
My Pro Jump I bought on eBay for $300. It’s a great saddle for the price and if I have trouble with the tree points later, so be it. The only problem I had was wrestling it from a wide gullet to a medium. I finally let Gary Severson wrestle it for me. If the saddle has been in a wide gullet for awhile, I was told that you sometimes need to step it down gradually.
IME those saddles fit a bit wide. My boy measures a MW but he goes in a Wintec Medium gullet.
Both those saddles have CAIR panels and we haven’t had a problem with them. In fact, my friend’s mare had a lot of back soreness issues in the past and she seems to do better with the CAIR.
Lots of great advice and input - THANK YOU EVERYONE!
Cool. That and the Show Jumper are now at the top of my list. 
I have one horse that likes the CAIR panels ok, but I also have 2 that won’t tolerate them. So if I do end up choosing something that comes with CAIR, I’ll definitely need to pay to have them replaced with wool. It’s nice that there is the option to do that though.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
