To be honest I’m not sure. Sometimes KY can get snow and the SB was in an area that gets snow, but I don’t know if it happened to snow during the 2 wk window she was in the northeast. She’s definitely not enthralled with it or interested in it like most horses I know are so I’m really not sure based on her reactions either. Interestingly, she’s not spooky about the big piles the snowplow leaves, which I was initially worried about.
Some random thoughts - sorry it kept getting longer as I thought of more things:
I skimmed the thread and will second/third/fourth the comments about going as slowly as you have to, establishing a routine, and that 2 months is not a lot of time for a horse to process major changes in life.
I will also second the advice to take your time just handling her - put your hands on her when grooming and just leave them on her - If you put your hand on her neck and leave it there, does she relax? tense up? Pay attention to her body language and her eyes and ears. Are they hard? soft? Trained on you? elsewhere? How is she when you touch her legs? Does she jerk them up or does she calmly lift them to let you hold them? Touch her back, touch her face, touch her muzzle. (Be safe while doing so!) But just pay attention - when does she look at you? When does her mouth relax? When does she sigh? When does she paw? When you get positive signals of relaxation from her, do more of that kind of touching.
One of the hardest things about training green horses is that there are times when you have to be really hard on them in order to be safe, and the rest of the time, you really need to be firm but supportive. If she is pulling you around on the ground, that is a safety issue and you should have your trainer show you how to handle this. You will need to be sharp about jerking the lead at the right time to give her the message that running over you is NOT acceptable. Chain shanks have a place and time for appropriate use. Not something to learn in forum format - have a trainer show you. Likewise about addressing pawing and misbehavior in the crossties.
I would be very careful about holding her halter (If I understand your BO’s advice correctly) when she is balking. Balking can turn into bolting. Or flying off in another unexpected direction, including possibly on top of you. My guess is your mere existence may have disappeared from her mind in these moments, and that puts you in a dangerous position, so please be careful. For an anxious horse balking, I’d give her a few beats of doing absolutely nothing before asking her to move, and I would not ask her to move forward immediately - ask her to turn instead - one direction, then change direction after a few steps, then stop and reward if she has her attention back on you. If not, just stop, give her a few beats, then try again - You can even try turning 180 degrees and backing a few steps. The objective is to redirect her attention and anxiety from whatever she’s balking at to something more productive, which at this stage always simply connecting with you. That’s it: you are present and her number 1 job is to be aware of your presence spatially relative to her. Same goes for when you go in the ring, or a grooming stall. I wouldn’t even l worry about riding or lunging her for now - keep it very simple and positive. She walks in the ring, loses focus on you, you do some in hand work until she connects back with you, then she’s done! Good mare! It’s zero pressure boring training, but it sets clear expectations and routine. It may take 2 days, it may take a week, it might take more, but for nervous horses, the simpler and smaller the steps are before they get rewarded, the better. She can learn that nothing you do with her is a big deal and she can trust that when you put pressure on her, the right response is to pay attention to you and stay calm, and then you will produce the goodies: pats, treats, grooming, turnout, etc.
With a green horse in work, any time they lose their balance, they will have a reaction. With a nervous horse, the reaction is generally to go faster. I don’t personally like lunging nervous horses for this reason as they can spiral to explosion really quickly. So slow down as much as you can, in hand, on the lunge, and in the saddle - walk halt walk halt, just very slowly and gently, with lots of praise. Maybe you do three transitions walk to halt and then the ride is over for the day. Good girl! When she is calm with that, you go for longer walks. If you have to make small serpentines to keep her mentally engaged, that’s fine - depends on the individual horse whether this will make them more nervous or successfully engage their brain. Again - what you are looking to reward is her mentally connecting with you.
To set her up for success with balance, you can do isometric exercises with her, ground work, and lunging - if your trainer can show you how to do these things and what to look for to check how effective you are being, that could be really a positive thing for you and her. Racing around on the lunge line will not be beneficial.
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What??? Feeding a leisure horse like it is a racehorse? Umm, yes, that might well be the root of your problem.
Dobbin is not is not running in the Kentucky Derby.
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Oh boy does this sound like my late mare. She started out flipping her lid in cross ties, rearing and the whole shebang. She did all this because her answer to every question was “move around”. That’s why she hated standing in a trailer till the day she died - if the doors of the trailer were closed she was quiet as a mouse. Open them and expect her to stand? Nope, jiggity jig jig get me off this thing so we can DO whatever we came to do. She was an anxious but brave horse. Within a couple months, she was standing like an angel both straight tied and cross tied. I could leave her there for hours if needed, she’d cock a leg and relax.
If I had this horse she would be standing straight tied for an hour or two every day. Once they realize that tie = you’re not going anywhere for a good long while, they tend to settle. Stall is a great place for this. Then, cross ties. Find the ones that won’t be in anyone’s way, and just leave her ass there. Go pick her stall, drink a latte, I don’t care. Her skittering around is anticipating GOING SOMEWHERE and DOING SOMETHING. Make that not what actually happens. While routine is great, a horse like this DOES need to have their routine changed so that it doesn’t all fall to pieces when everything isn’t just so. Groom, saddle, then leave her there for 45 minutes, then go ride. Next day groom, leave her there, saddle, go ride. Etc.
For the spooking, it gets ignored by me UNLESS 1) they in any way encroach on my space (this includes clobbering my ankles when they do that splayed foot thing) or 2) they violently bolt ahead of me in a way that puts me in a kick zone. Those two things get SWIFTLY corrected, then I go on like it never happened. I flat out do not care what they’re scared of, my space is not to be invaded or there will be a CTJ meeting. Black and white rule right there. Loving and snuggling and petting is great, but only when i initiate it.
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Yeah, the whole thing has been bloody insane. The problem is that I know some of the behavior started before the groom changed her feed but because I don’t know exactly when it happened it’s hard to pinpoint how much of it this whole time may have been the feed.
Writing this all down/saying it out loud has really solidified what a laughable mess parts of this situation are. Feels kind of surreal that all of this (ulcers, revelations, barn hand changing horse to the same chow as the racehorses…) has all happened in the span of 2 months, lol.
This is all amazing, thank you so much for taking the time to write it out. My trainer actually recommended a 2-knot rope halter for better control when she’s in-hand so while I don’t use a chain shank I do lead her by the rope halter. Barn policy is turnout in halters so she wears a leather one because I want to be sure it’ll break if something happens, but the rope halter is what I attach her lead to and I make sure it has contact instead of just being on top of the leather halter. I have noticed some improvements using that, though by the time I’ve gotten the rope halter she’s much less pushy than she was when I first got her - I did a LOT of clicker training and correction by moving her feet or making her wait etc etc when leading her on the ground right when I first got her because she wouldn’t slow down on the lead line and would try to yank her head this way and that to get grass. She still has her little moments and it’s an ongoing project which I find the rope halter helps with in the interim.
What kind of isometric exercises are you referring to re: balance?
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Things like lateral tail pulls and belly lifts. Holding one leg up at a time for increasing periods and varying positions is good (this is what i mostly use with my horse these days because i just do it while picking his feet), but takes time to work up to and I wouldn’t recommend it for this stage of where you are with her.
In this particular case, I really don’t know if it would be of benefit to send the horse off for 2-3 months anyway. Because #1, I think it’s going to take longer than 2-3 months. But #2, training is not transferrable.
Let’s say for example that you would send her off. Trainer says horse is doing great. You go pick her up after 90 days and come home. And horse is exactly that same. But how? She just had 90 days training!!! But … she didn’t have the training with you. And just because she went well for someone else who had the right timing, and right feel, and the right confidence, that doesn’t mean it is going to magically transfer to you.
So instead, what I would do, is go find some colt starting clinics (from reputable trainers … not those aforementioned “punish” and “force” trainers) and go take your horse. Yes, you’ll feel silly because she isn’t a colt you are starting but the whole point is to put yourself into a learning environment to be confident with her, build trust, and start to learn your timing and feel.
The biggest important piece is your release. And being very aware of what the release is. And when you apply it. It can be the difference.
For example, let’s say she spooks at something and you manage to get her stopped with a one rein stop. Here’s a few situations where it could go wrong. If you release your cues before her feet actually stop. Or, if she has completely stopped but you haven’t released your cues. Both of these are not going to teach her that what you wanted was for her feet to stop, and that that was the correct answer. That’s where that release can be so critical. And it’s what gets them thinking about what they need to do to find that release. When they figure that out, then they’re looking for the release and trying to figure out what you want. And TRY is the name of the game!!
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@hemitheconyxcaudicinctus Take heart. Two months is not long at all for a horse with new people, in a new home, owning an unknown history, an uncertain level of training, with digestive issues and until recently being fed the energy levels of a race horse. I suspect that, with time, things will quieten down considerably.
Time is invaluable with horses. The “count to ten” suggestion someone offered in the discussion is an excellent one, helpful to both of you. Don’t be dismayed if it takes 10 or 12 months for her to settle completely into trust and harmony. Horses also have their views and opinions and it takes time for human and horse to establish effective lines of communication. You don’t know what past experience - good or bad - she is dealing with. She doesn’t understand what you are offering. She doesn’t yet trust her new routine. Even at the highest level of professional riding, often it takes time for a partnership to develop - and sometimes it doesn’t (Tortilas comes to mind).
Second, please don’t undervalue your own store of knowledge and experience. Having years of lessons, riding many different horses, riding in different locations, learning from many different people, reading and watching widely is, in practice, an extremely useful back ground to have. In my experience, people who “have their own horse” can sadly over estimate their abilities and prove themselves unable to cope with a new horse or with riding in a new environment. So don’t dismiss what you do know, be confident in yourself and in your horse. Don’t overthink. You effectively manage other areas of your life so I’m sure you can add horse ownership to your list of competencies.
There is a bit of a COTH thing that suggests if one doesn’t ride three of one’s own horses seven days a week whilst fitting in family and work than one really can’t be a good horseman. Me, I just wonder how on earth these superheros do it. I quietly continue on my enjoyable equestrian journey by now riding one or two times a week on school horses. I’ve been riding for six decades and on five continents but I still learn something about horses and riding everytime I handle one or sit in a saddle. Relax and enjoy the journey you are on.
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Two months with a new horse is not that long, in terms of developing a relationship, and mares tend to take longer than geldings to warm up to the new human in their life.
I’d say just keep on keepin’ on. Another problem with sending the horse away for training is that then the trainer is building the relationship with the horse and not you. Plus, it’s a new situation that the horse has to adjust to, and then she’ll have to re-adjust when she returns to your barn, etc. Ideally, if you can take lessons on your horse at your barn (at least initially) with someone who understands that you are working with a green horse, you can make progress more rapidly.
You could try adding some magnesium to her diet, as sometimes that it helpful to lessen the reactivity. (here’s some info on magnesium in horses’ diets: Magnesium. There are a lot of good supplements out there with magnesium and many of them are listed as “calming.”
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Sorry if I missed it, but was she put on a stomach supplement after finishing the Gastrguard? And are you in an area that has Lyme?
@hemitheconyxcaudicinctus, my first suggestion is to go back and reread what @Willesdon just posted.
My second suggestion is to take your horse for a nice walk (on a lead rope, not under saddle) every time you go out to see her. This is a great low pressure way to start developing a relationship.
Using clicker training to teach a few simple behaviors is also a good relationship-building activity, but really, anything you can do to spend time with your horse doing things that are comfortable and low pressure is valuable.
I find that it usually takes me about a year to achieve a truly comfortable partnership with a new horse that is being boarded. It goes quicker if the horse is at home where I’m the one who provides 100% of the care.
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I have two geldings who are both very busy mentally and can get very UP UP UP in arms about things. Laughing with them, taking walks, tinkering with ground stuff (like in hand obstacle training, backing patterns in hand, doing just STUFF with them is just good for them.
I agree with looking forward, not backward. For solid and interesting in hand work, check out Warwick Schiller.
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A previous poster recommended working on YOU, not the horse, by taking lessons. Why not work on you by reducing your own anxiety/frustration? Horses, like people, tend to mirror our emotions and attitudes. By being calm, you’ll show the horse there’s nothing to worry about and, if there were, you’d take care of it because you’re the boss. Cesar Milan’s dog training applies here.
For things to do with the horse, including a lot of inventive groundwork, look at Linda Tellington-Jones’ works. There are a lot of them, books, videos, etc. I’ve found them invaluable. And for riding, Centered Riding works wonders. There are exercises to loosen up and relax before even getting on. For general mental and physical calmness, yoga and meditation do it for me.
You’re not alone. Others have been working on these problems for years.
Just skimmed this but something stood out. Earlier OP stated something about either letting mare just stand and look or “Pulling her forward”??. We don’t ever “pull forward” to get a horse forward, that doesn’t even work with dogs on a leash, may solve the immediate problem but teaches nothing.
We need to teach them what to do, not just deal with the result of them not knowing or understanding. And pulling a horse forward, or trying to, takes the handler out of the safety zone at the shoulder risking getting knocked down or run over. IMO, OP needs to look at the basic ideas behind ground handling and find somebody who can help her with that. Its pretty logical and common sense stuff.
Hate to suggest it ,as it can be a rabbit hole, but perhaps a search of NH theories on influencing horse behavior and understanding how they process information might be helpful. Theres likely lots out there that wont cost.
Just be careful to keep in mind many on the net don’t really know what they are talking about or are extremists. Sift through those carefully though and theres much useful information. COTH is generally very informative from knowledgeable, experienced sources.
Don’t be afraid to ask on here. We can be blunt but want to give several ideas for you to work out. There is no one size fits all, no majikal pills or buttons with horses. Just ideas and ways of thinking about the relationship….and some out to scam to make a buck off you. Asking on here can help avoid those.
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Just for reference I want to clarify that I don’t pull her forward, I let her look and check things out and was told by other sources that she was “testing”/“taking advantage” of me. They were the ones saying to pull her forward.
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We’ve been doing that a lot lately! Going to try to make it part of the routine, especially because we’ve gotten lucky and had the track to ourselves a few times.
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Two great tools for groundwork are a rope halter and a dressage whip. Neither should be used harshly or even to punish, just there to reinforce cues as aids on the ground. The whip basically extends the length of your arm and can be used to encourage forward movement, whoa or step away from you and the rope halter IMO is much more effective in many circumstances than a chain over the nose. Watch some good videos on groundwork as others have suggested and consider using these every time you go for a walk, do groundwork, etc. The goal for you at this time is to build trust, confidence and respect in your abilities to be her leader. Your confidence in these matters will help things, so learn as much as you can from good sources. You being the leader often will really help an anxious horse settle, as often they seem more comfortable and confident when someone is actually telling them what to do. Good luck!
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Yes, it’s true, balking is a terrible habit and can escalate to rearing faster than you think. For the short term, lead with a dressage whip, and don’t hesitate to tap her on the side the very second she even thinks about balking. It doesn’t have to be hard, it just has to be clear. As little pressure as possible, but as much as necessary.
I know from personal experience that it’s tough as a first time horse owner to create an environment where a horse can thrive. It’s partly because you second guess yourself, partly because you hesitate to act because you’re trying to be kind to the horse, and partly because you may not recognize your “cues” to intervene and correct, so you wait until it escalates. The end result is ambiguity, and that can make a horse really anxious.
A trainer advised me that when you get a new horse, you have to accept that it’s a dictatorship. You have to accept your role as dictator, because the most important and fairest thing for the horse is to be crystal clear about what’s expected and what’s not. I was personally not thrilled about that role, because correcting my horse sometimes brought about unpleasant confrontations, and if something didn’t work instantaneously I was very quick to switch my approach. But ultimately it’s what got me to the other side of a very grueling rough patch that I know everyone around me thought I was doomed to give up on.
It’s really important to create structure, routine, and to make all your expectations black and white. And the other thing in the near term that helps is to understand that it can relax them to start asking more, to get their feet moving, change directions, etc, even if your instincts tell you that’s overwhelming and you should take your leg off. They can settle down and focus in their work with clear contact and direction from you. But if you’re too soft and back off, it can make them more nervous.
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You and your trainer appear to be way out of your depth. The horse is a far cry from the horse you tried and my best advice is to contact the previous seller and see if you can send her back. The possibilities of success for a novice horse owner to retrain a teenaged horse are slim and none.
My second best advice, because no one takes the first best until they are utterly at their wit’s end, is to get Bill Dorrance’s book, Better Horsemanship Through Feel. Start at the beginning. Carefully and thoughtfully do exactly what he says. Think about what you are feeling. Don’t rush. It takes as long as it takes. After a month or so of that, if you and your horse have progressed, get another book called 101 Arena Exercises for Horse and Rider. Start at the beginning. Do the exercises from the ground at the walk. After you can do them at the walk, do them at the walk when mounted. You’ll have to sort through them a little bit to find the ones you can do from the ground. Don’t be in a hurry. It takes as long as it takes.
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