I’ve been skimming this thread since the beginning but I really have to ask this question now. Are you trying to work this mare by bringing her out of a paddock and put her into an empty barn on xties and then an empty arena away from all the other horses in a new place? Occasionally with harness horses running by? If so, 99% of even seasoned show horses would be so nervous in that situation that they might actually murder you.
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Good point. I would tack up where she’s comfortable like outside.
No harness horses running by, but yes, we’re usually alone in the barn and nobody else uses the arena. I’m not really sure what else I’m able to do, though.
Does anyone else ride at this barn? Can you team up with someone? This isn’t going to get better. You’ve taken a horse that was suitable for a novice on your multiple trials and stressed it out to the point where it’s unmanageable. Your trainer is frankly questionable if they haven’t pointed this out. It should have been addressed in two days, not two months. You’d need something with three feet in the grave to handle this situation and even then they’d still be nervous, just slower.
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When I was dealing with a herd bound mare that had gone a bit feral on pasture I brought her in from field board with her buddy that I was riding and put them both in stalls where they could see each other with alfalfa. Then left feral Meryl in the stall eating while I went riding. Then both to field after.
I’d add that every horse has the capacity to be made more or less herd bound depending on how it’s handled. I kind of missed this scenario in the OP. But it’s a textbook case of the absolute worst way to handle these tendencies which is to push through and then longe and work the horse up more and more. If you want to solve herd bound you do like any obstacles training and stay within the horses comfort zone. Maybe you walk around in sight of the pasture for a few days. Briefly go out of sight and back. You want to keep the horse calm and focused on you.
What your kick on through routine has taught the horse is that when she goes in the barn she gets upset you do nothing to allieviate this and then you razz her up on the longeline until she’s exhausted. She effectively gets punished for her anxiety
No wonder she is now balking. You’ve continually set her up for failure and she feels she’s being punished for this.
The number one key thing in retraining is to learn to read a horse and stay within their comfort level while pushing the envelope of what they can handle. If the horse is blowing up you have already failed to read the signs and need to dial it way way back.
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OP, look for videos by Warwick Schiller about his “50 foot trail ride” and you’ll see this in action. Rather than attempting to take a herdbound horse out on a full trail ride alone, he gradually introduces the idea of leaving home by going 50 feet and then turning around, then going slightly further before turning for home again, so that the horse is able to stay relaxed and is able to learn that leaving the barn area isn’t a big deal.
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I am able to do this. With my gelding I’ve had for 9 years, moved all over, built one hell of a good relationship, and introduced to the idea slowly. I can ask a lot of him. Every time we move barns, I have to start over the process of “it’s okay to be alone in here with just me”. And it takes TIME, baby steps, but this horse has learned over YEARS to trust me a bit.
I could never do this with a new horse, especially not a new teenaged horse with a questionable past. OP, you’ve gotten a lot of stern but good advice here recently - I do hope you take it for what it’s worth and realize everyone really has your best interest at heart. This sounds like a situation that is rapidly spiraling.
What are your goals OP? To ride, work on your skills, enjoy a horse of your own? Or do you want to spend months-years fixing THIS horse, regardless of suitability or ever getting to ride/show/do fun things?
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When I returned to riding at a good h/j lesson barn you could do this without question with the lesson horses. When I kept my own mare temporarily on pasture board I could do this because she was very food motivated and a very confident horse who will trail ride alone. But I would never assume that a new horse will do this and if it became clear day one the horse was pitching a fit being alone I would be addressing this with something like the “50 foot trail ride” concept above. I would never try to ride a horse that was pitching a fit on the ground.
It’s the difference between problem solving within a horses comfort zone and “kick on through” which is what we often get taught to do with lesson horses.
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Nope. Not really true.
Warwick Schiller does a great job of putting this into context.
You let them look, look WITH them, then redirect.
Mares do very poorly with a “don’t let them get away with it” viewpoint. They need Relationship first, Behavior Shaping second.
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Yes. People get away with bullying horses that are lower energy or not really that upset.
The reason that “kick on through” is the standard instruction in lesson programs is that these horses are basically saints and the handlers are incompetent and often screw up a perfectly normal activity. Rather than sit down in the aisle and burst into tears we tell the students to persevere because we know there is nothing wrong with the horse.
All that goes out the window when you are an owner with a green or troubled horse. In this case reverting to “kick on through” to solve emotionally based problems or undiagnosed training holes (or indeed pain) is absolutely the worst thing you can do because it makes things escalate.
If OP can figure out how to work through this horses emotional issues, and stop contributing to them by trying to “kick on through,” they will have made a huge jump as a horse person. But in order to do this they will need to let go of all the “kick on through” and “don’t let them test you” rubbish that is the reflexive automatic advice spewed by bystanders.
Where is coach in all this? Has coach not seen that mare is having a progressive emotional breakdown under current system?
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Herdbound I don’t think is really an accurate term here. I deal and have dealt with lots of different types of horses. show horses and unstarted, unhandled rescue horses and everything in between. Almost all of them can learn to go work alone away from their friends in the barn, in an isolated arena or go out alone on a trail ride. They can almost all learn to deal when their particular friend leaves the barn or field to work and they are left behind. Most can learn to be alone in a field. That’s herdbound and it’s generally fixable to some extent as long as it’s carefully and slowly taught.
But out of hundreds of different types of horses over the years I can only think of a handful that could come into an empty barn and be comfortable by themselves and then go work in a relaxed manner. And only in a place they know well with a person and routine they know well. Horses alone in a barn tend to spin in stalls until they drip sweat and dance on crossties and they don’t tend to get over it. They definitely aren’t rideable once worked up. It’s a really unusual animal that can manage that particular situation, for whatever reason it is that makes it the hardest type of separation anxiety. Getting a different horse would only fix the situation in the sense that you wouldn’t be starting with this one that has already been given PTSD by following this pattern for months. You’d be really unlikely to find one that could just deal right away, or maybe even ever.
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Thank you for tying the strings together- I had not caught the details of no other riders, empty barn, empty arena- this is all too much.
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EXACTLY!
This situation is such a huge ask of this horse. I could do this with only one of my three, and only because he and I have been a million miles and countless places together. The second would cope on the surface, but his manure and tension in his ribs would tell a completely different story. My husband’s little horse would be out of his skin.
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I didn’t either.
I’m not sure that I have been ‘kicking her on through’ - when she balks as I’ve said at other points in this thread I don’t push her through, that’s what others who offer their unsolicited opinions have chimed in to say when I’ve been waiting it out. I stand there and let her sniff and go at her own pace.
My riding instructor is working with me too. I am asking for advice here because I thought I would be given suggestions on things like relaxation exercises or specific groundwork routines for her to incorporate into what we are doing.
I was referring to repeatedly putting her in cross ties alone then having to longe her in the arena because she got so worked up you couldn’t ride her. And then over time she started balking about leaving the barn for the arena which shows the problem is growing not being solved.
“Kicking on through” here means that you ignore the horses emotional reaction and try to carry on with your plan for the day without recognizing that it is your plan that is causing the problem. Horse is freaking out because alone in crossties in the barn and then alone in the arena. Rather than back up a few steps and remove the cross ties issue you just plow through and “kick on through” until over time horse becomes borderline unmanageable.
How to break this cycle? The 50 foot trail ride idea. Having a barn buddy horse in the barn and in the arena. Groom and saddle horse in view of paddocks. Put horse in a stall mid day with some alfalfa for lunch so she associates barn time with good things. maybe lunch with buddy in the next stall.
What you don’t do is just keep repeating the same negative experience day after day while it escalates and expect horse to “get over it.” You’ve created this problem, you need to figure out how to fix it.
But you need to own the fact that you created this problem. That’s the only way you can solve it. It’s not the fault of the horse.
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I want to work with this horse. I feel like most of the advice has been stern but helpful, but there have been some people who have flat outright said that there’s zero hope of turning things around even with a trainer and that feels a lot less like compassionate advice and more like wanting to feel ‘right’ by offering the most dualistic or simplistic take. Ultimately, I can’t afford to go through the horse selling/buying process again, and I can’t send her back. It is this horse or no horse, and given that I did literally every item on the checklist to avoid a situation like this and still ended up with the horse that I did, I doubt attempting to find a second horse would have a different result. Further - she is my horse, and she is my responsibility. Relocating her yet again would only exacerbate the trauma of moving multiple times in a year. I can’t do that to her, especially with where she’d probably end up.
Of course I wanted a horse I could just get on and ride and have fun with. I’m more upset about this situation than any third party can be. I have spent my lifetime wanting a horse more than anything. This is literally exactly what I went to elaborate measures to avoid - but I don’t really have any choice other than to accept the sh*t sandwich that is this situation and move forward and do my best with the help of the professional resources I have. I’m trying as hard as I can, going to the barn to work with her every day even in snowstorms, and I came here to ask for genuine help.
I’m looking for advice on the situation I’m in and on working with the horse as indicated in the OP, not being told whether or not I should throw in the towel and sell her. I’ve asked my trainer, who has known me for many years, and I’ve asked the barn owner, who has been working horses for half a century, and both have said that they feel the situation is salvageable.
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Yes. It’s salvageable because you caused it, essentially, so it’s in your hands to fix it. But you have to start analyzing everything you have done that’s created this problem, and you have to learn to read your horse so you intervene before she gets worked up and anxious. You need to show her that being with you will lessen her anxiety. Right now she thinks the things she does with you are the most upsetting part of her day and that she is being punished for her feelings. And that you don’t listen to her.
Mares are basically 10 year old girls with a strong sense of people being not fair, except when they are in heat and they are 14 year old girls screaming and giggling about boys.
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I apologize if this has been asked, are there other barns you might consider? Where there are other riders, happenings, etc? This feels like a steep hill to climb and I’m wondering if there’s an alternative path like that available to you?
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